PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Areesh]

Oh I have alright, all the way down to the pictures of the avionics to the speculations on the engine to what not. I'm sure YOUR queries were all resolved to thhe fullesy extent possible.

1 Their are no speculations about engine
2 Yes my queries are resolved

 

[Quwa]

Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:

a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)

For a start, systems such as HMD/S, 5th-gen WVRAAM, IRST, etc, have been confirmed for JF-17 by PAF officials themselves. As for AESA radar, key suppliers have already begun development of export-oriented systems - both in Europe and China. You can't expect the JF-17 to indefinitely use a PD radar when its key suppliers (specially China and Italy/France) will shift AESA. Once these systems enter production and are put up for sale, we should expect PAF to pursue an option that actually improves JF-17's performance.

Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast?

Do you work for PAF? I bet you didn't even imagine the PAF Block-52+ nor the J-10B improvements until they actually hit the news. Don't take up such assumptions, just know that there are now many credible reports stating that the Chinese are developing two 5th-generation fighters, in which one will be a medium-weight aircraft to make up for the PLAAF lo-portion in its hi/lo mix. I'd wager a guess and imagine that PAF will try to participate in that project.

 

[Guynextdoor]

For a start, systems such as HMD/S, 5th-gen WVRAAM, IRST, etc, have been confirmed for JF-17 by PAF officials themselves. As for AESA radar, key suppliers have already begun development of export-oriented systems - both in Europe and China. You can't expect the JF-17 to indefinitely use a PD radar when its key suppliers (specially China and Italy/France) will shift AESA. Once these systems enter production and are put up for sale, we should expect PAF to pursue an option that actually improves JF-17's performance.

Do you work for PAF? I bet you didn't even imagine the PAF Block-52+ nor the J-10B improvements until they actually hit the news. Don't take up such assumptions, just know that there are now many credible reports stating that the Chinese are developing two 5th-generation fighters, in which one will be a medium-weight aircraft to make up for the PLAAF lo-portion in its hi/lo mix. I'd wager a guess and imagine that PAF will try to participate in that project.

a. WHat's the technology roadmap? WHEN? Timeframe etc.

b. SQR, RFPs? Issued? Funding secured? Evaluation started? Chinese building 5th gen proptypes is a credible prospect and I would believe as much for a force of the sort that they are building but until it flies, tested yaada yaada yaada, you can't work out a roadmap for when it'll be a part of YOUR force. Chinese aren't discussing anything about their 5th gen projects until it flies, they seem to be taking it seriously as a proof point of their capabilities so they'll probably start discussions only after it flies/significant time after it flies. U plan to just wait till then? What about the rest of your force? But, my point still remains...you want something in your force in 10 years time, you need to have concrete plans, evaluation & funding for it TODAY. What I can see is that when comaring your threat perception with regard our current force structure...large sections of Indian AF is already moving beyond your capability levels. JF 17 just won't be enuf. You need plans for the rest of it to become a credible threat which I don't see because you guys are so enamored of JF 17 that you aren't thinking of the rest of it.

P.S- F 16 & JF 17 might get upgrades, but my belief is that whatever upgrades you make will be automatically made up by the planned upgrades in our force.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

a. WHat's the technology roadmap? WHEN? Timeframe etc.

The technology road map is not really a shareable document. These are confidential documents with the respective defence establishments.

What you see is only what they let you see. A defence deal is visible. What you do not see is what their operation planning is. India, at this juncture is not Pakistan centric in it's defence preparedness. While Pakistan does not want to match India in terms of numbers. It would, just as any nation which is smaller in economy, want to match India in terms of technology to the extent it can (both the countries use exported technology and both have not been tested against each other in a real time and I hope it never does.). Additionally it would hope that should the conventional war tilt in India's favour, it would initiate a nuclear attack. That would be it's guarantee for MAD.

b. SQR, RFPs? Issued? Funding secured? Evaluation started? Chinese building 5th gen proptypes is a credible prospect and I would believe as much for a force of the sort that they are building but until it flies, tested yaada yaada yaada, you can't work out a roadmap for when it'll be a part of YOUR force. Chinese aren't discussing anything about their 5th gen projects until it flies, they seem to be taking it seriously as a proof point of their capabilities so they'll probably start discussions only after it flies/significant time after it flies. U plan to just wait till then? What about the rest of your force? But, my point still remains...you want something in your force in 10 years time, you need to have concrete plans, evaluation & funding for it TODAY. What I can see is that when comaring your threat perception with regard our current force structure...large sections of Indian AF is already moving beyond your capability levels. JF 17 just won't be enuf. You need plans for the rest of it to become a credible threat which I don't see because you guys are so enamored of JF 17 that you aren't thinking of the rest of it.

P.S- F 16 & JF 17 might get upgrades, but my belief is that whatever upgrades you make will be automatically made up by the planned upgrades in our force.

Do we know which direction we are moving in? We, meaning India. We have some semblance of sanity but really, where is LCA going? It was funded when? a million years ago <sorry Federer, had to use your quote>.

Just as India has wisely invested in Su's and Migs for the navy (Seriously that naval part was a big big big goof up from India), Pakistan has also invested in F-16's. Pakistan, I would think is spending it's money cautiously and wisely. Do not forget Pakistan was betrayed by US wrt to the F16s and if they could, they would move away from the US in long term. I think that explains why they want to get the JF 17 development going full throttle. Whether or not it meets the technological requirements of today is a point a short sighted man would prefer. Long term planning seems to be just fine for them.

Regards,
Anoop

 

[indushek]

Not every plane is convertable into Stealth....( I wonder people get amazed by JFX and F-15SE).....Every 5th Gen uptill now is a unique experience....so it may not be possible to convert JFT into stealth fighter...rather its RCS may be lowered by Redesign......

See all i am saying is may be u couldn't do it like a F-35 or may be not even F 15 SE , but still u could make it evolve right?? Just like F-16 and F-15 u could make different blocks, not only could u make it more and more better but also u would save money and also by investing in ur own industry u buildup a strong base for urself. I mean it is easier said than done and also lot of strategic thinking goes in to this, however in the long run may be u will be the one who will reap the benefit. This is my belief ur free to contradict it, but for technology deficient countries like India and Pakistan this is the best bet for a solid future.

 

[Guynextdoor]

The technology road map is not really a shareable document. These are confidential documents with the respective defence establishments.

What you see is only what they let you see. A defence deal is visible. What you do not see is what their operation planning is. India, at this juncture is not Pakistan centric in it's defence preparedness. While Pakistan does not want to match India in terms of numbers. It would, just as any nation which is smaller in economy, want to match India in terms of technology to the extent it can (both the countries use exported technology and both have not been tested against each other in a real time and I hope it never does.). Additionally it would hope that should the conventional war tilt in India's favour, it would initiate a nuclear attack. That would be it's guarantee for MAD.




Do we know which direction we are moving in? We, meaning India. We have some semblance of sanity but really, where is LCA going? It was funded when? a million years ago <sorry Federer, had to use your quote>.

Just as India has wisely invested in Su's and Migs for the navy (Seriously that naval part was a big big big goof up from India), Pakistan has also invested in F-16's. Pakistan, I would think is spending it's money cautiously and wisely. Do not forget Pakistan was betrayed by US wrt to the F16s and if they could, they would move away from the US in long term. I think that explains why they want to get the JF 17 development going full throttle. Whether or not it meets the technological requirements of today is a point a short sighted man would prefer. Long term planning seems to be just fine for them.

Regards,
Anoop

a. Ok so the technology roadmap is not visible. But stuff like timeframe (by when do you want all those goodies in place), development partners (have you floated requests to?) ...MOVEMENT some indications of that. Rememeber we are talking about a flying platform and some fairly conventional tech.

b.I'm not limiting myself to development programs even if they are looking at buying stuff as a solution that's an Ok strategy. The point is this. If JF 17 is their mainline fighter (excluding F 16 higher blocks which are now coming in in limted nos.), & if that can take on LCA with difficulty, not up to the mark with MMRCA & not exactly ahem ahem suited for taking on SU 30 today or Pak Fa in future, what are the additional steps that the PAF taking to bridge current and tech capability gaps?

 

[TaimiKhan]

a. Ok so the technology roadmap is not visible. But stuff like timeframe (by when do you want all those goodies in place), development partners (have you floated requests to?) ...MOVEMENT some indications of that. Rememeber we are talking about a flying platform and some fairly conventional tech.

b.I'm not limiting myself to development programs even if they are looking at buying stuff as a solution that's an Ok strategy. The point is this. If JF 17 is their mainline fighter (excluding F 16 higher blocks which are now coming in in limted nos.), & if that can take on LCA with difficulty, not up to the mark with MMRCA & not exactly ahem ahem suited for taking on SU 30 today or Pak Fa in future, what are the additional steps that the PAF taking to bridge current and tech capability gaps?

How much about PAF future plans are known or how much do they discuss ?? Nothing till something is finalized.

Take example of J-10s, even when J-10 was not officially announced to the world, the Chinese were showing the manufacturing plants to the President of Pakistan when he was visiting China and even offered to sale it. Here PAF jumped in, and gave its own specifications and requirements to tailor the FC-20s as per its own specifications, here they thought about future and invested in a future project. Same case with JF-17s, Chinese may have done the things, but it was PAF people who were the driving force behind it and made JF-17 something capable enough.

So you will never know what PAF is doing in this regard about future inductions, planned upgrades and what not. Only when things start to come up, then we know what has been done and what may be done in future.

JF-17s & FC-20s are both examples of that.

How is it gonna counter IAF MRCAs or Pak-Fa, is still to be seen. Who knows what is happening in the background between PAF officials and Chinese with regard to future developments, as both are gonna face the same enemy in coming decades atleast and nearly same kind of aircraft, thus both will see to a common solution.

J-10 was their prize fighter program and PAF was given access to it way back in 2005-06, who knows even now they may have given then access to their Stealth program after seeing the outcomes of JF-17s & FC-20s after PAF got involved.

 

[Super Falcon]

i fully agree with Taiml Kham that they might in closed doors gave acces to pakistan to stealth fighter jet to be sold to pakistan reason why they dont have make it officialy because USA and indians will cry alot if pakistan get something which can match their technology and power.

 

[amit27]

However, although the PLA hails the accomplishment of developing China&#8217;s first indigenous fighter, the J10 is not entirely home-made. It is believed to be loosely based on the early-generation US F16. Israel helped at the start with aspects of avionics and aerodynamics until it was warned off by Washington. Earlier models were equipped with Russian jet turbines, complicating future sales potential.

One military expert said: &#8220;For this type of third-generation aircraft it&#8217;s a serious plane. It&#8217;s very good. But it is still equivalent only to an early F16.&#8221;

Another attach&#233; said that the technology of its wheels, among other aspects, means that it could not be used on board any aircraft carrier that China may build, underscoring how far the PLA still lags behind Western militaries.


China&rsquo;s PLA opens up to show off J10, its first indigenous fighter jet - Times Online

 

[SBD-3]

Instead of posting vague nonsense maybe u could spend time explaning:

a. Why all reports current in media portray JF 17 to be largely a 4th gen fighter (at max). Stuff like AESA & Composite airframe are speculative, haven't yet seen the firm plans. Haven't got clarity on the avionics after the french problem (doemistic production is no answer-production of what and how it compares to what you may have got)

Because media will portray what is available....and honestly talking PAF keeps its most of the stuff very secret...unless PAF makes the news public.....so yes as per available data JFT is a 4th Gen AC but given its Tag of 10-15 million with 4th Gen configuration....you can imagine what goodies it can have in 25 Million Tag....I think you never got through previous posts before bombing your post in...and FYI PAF is actively working on adding more composits, A possible AESA (Italian and Chinese are in competition), and have stared to integrate indiginous avionics, A 5th Gen WVRAAM, an indiginous BVRAAM in thunder (Did you know it?),furthermore, a more advanced EW Suit for Thunder is under development at PAC and nearling completion....This is what is avialable or disclosed publically.....good job done isn't it?

b

. The closest in your family of fighters in comparison to MMRCA contenders is F 16. However, the F 16 IN (MMRCA contender) is a different animal in comparison to even Block 50/60 (AESA Supercruise, TVC). While my contention is that JF 17 is probably in the range of F 16 early blocks, even if I go by the logic that you will (somehow) get it up to the caliber of the later F 16 jets, I still don't see how it will measure up to MRCA (therefore point B)

AESA is what I know.....can you enlighten me where did you get the supercruise and TVC?....The Engine used will be GE F110-132A which is more fuel efficent but produces 500Lbs (1KN) lesser thrust than GE F110-132 Used by Block 60 which can not supercusie as (AESA adds a lot to weight of AC).......secondly regarding TVC, the only version AFAIK with TVC is F100-232 generate 37,150lbs thrust with a 3D nozzle (not used in Falcon) and by the way these "early block f-16s" prevented IAF from surgical strikes...(Two SU-30s Being locked on at Khariyan...)

c. Su 30...ahem

you can get a cough syrup....or should I arrange one for you

d. Pak Fa...ahem ahem

is still a long way to go......

Plus no word on strategic planning beyond JF 17. So one will naturally assume that JF 17 will remain priority for a looong time. Anything beyond that, even if you start now will take what a decade for you, even if you start working fast?

Project Thunder will be completed by 2015...(You really dont have any information on Thunder ma man) and then PAF will be moving ahead...

Please note that this thread is dedicated to tackling a medium level threat. NoT the dominant CURRENT threat (Su 30) nor the expected dominant future threat (Pak Fa)

 

[hboGYT]

However, although the PLA hails the accomplishment of developing China’s first indigenous fighter, the J10 is not entirely home-made. It is believed to be loosely based on the early-generation US F16. Israel helped at the start with aspects of avionics and aerodynamics until it was warned off by Washington. Earlier models were equipped with Russian jet turbines, complicating future sales potential.

One military expert said: “For this type of third-generation aircraft it’s a serious plane. It’s very good. But it is still equivalent only to an early F16.”

Another attaché said that the technology of its wheels, among other aspects, means that it could not be used on board any aircraft carrier that China may build, underscoring how far the PLA still lags behind Western militaries.


China&rsquo;s PLA opens up to show off J10, its first indigenous fighter jet - Times Online

Where have you been? J-10 basic variant is at least around F-16 block 40 level, as ealier F-16s could not fire ARH AAM. A guestimation puts J-10A on the same level as block 52. J-10B is equivalent to block 60 and beyond.

 

[amit27]

Where have you been? J-10 basic variant is at least around F-16 block 40 level, as ealier F-16s could not fire ARH AAM. A guestimation puts J-10A on the same level as block 52. J-10B is equivalent to block 60 and beyond.

the J10B = F16 block 60? mmm we dont know the features of the J10B yet such as the type of AESA radar so cant compare it to F16 block 60 one.

 

[amit27]

The F16 block 60 new features include: Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.

 

[SBD-3]

The F16 block 60 new features include: Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs); AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds (143 kN) of thrust with FADEC controls; electronic warfare suite and infra-red searching (IRST); updated all-color glass cockpit; and a helmet-mounted cueing system.

Thats Why I say....dont wiki everything.....AESA is also in Block 60 UAE....nothing over desert falcon.....GE-110-132A....making viper to operate with more safety and efficiency but not improving its TWR......EWS.......again its also present in Block 60......all colour glass cockpit....well honestly I dont know much about advantage of SV in this.....IRST....definately a new thing....but I cant see the IRST on the picture published by LMCO....can some one help me.....JHMQS....even PAF Bl 52 have them.....

 

[Super Falcon]

well F 16 Fighting Falcon is ever greeen multirole fighter jet father of all multirole fighter jet ever produced and one of the best even today.