PAF To Participate in PAS With Block-3

[Xerxes1]

No ,the facility is well defended all of our sensitive installations are in safe hands

Can someone tell me what are our contingency plans if IAF tries to take out the PAC Kamra facility with cruise missiles for example? Its the one and only facility that all our aviation relation programs are rooted in. Cant we just distribute the facilities all over the country especially in western and southern balochistan so in case of an attack , we dont lose everything! The current setup is like a one room house where the enemy knows where to find you each time!

 

[Xerxes1]

P.S none of indian installion is out of our reach either

Can someone tell me what are our contingency plans if IAF tries to take out the PAC Kamra facility with cruise missiles for example? Its the one and only facility that all our aviation relation programs are rooted in. Cant we just distribute the facilities all over the country especially in western and southern balochistan so in case of an attack , we dont lose everything! The current setup is like a one room house where the enemy knows where to find you each time!

 

[Haris Ali2140]

That is right.

Military contracts and deals are only partially made on 'capability' of the system itself.

For instance, even if we agree that LCA is superior on paper to JF-17. Malaysians will still choose JF-17 to avoid 'looking bad' in the Islamic world or it can go the other way round only due to economic considerations of huge Indian imports from Malaysia. The question of capability goes out of the window here.

Furthermore, in military contracts, there are complex offsets involved. Countries want to manufacture a few things themselves and minus its cost from the cost of the aircraft. Even worse, barter deals are made. You buy X amount of minerals from us and minus its cost from the deal. Pakistan is in no position to navigate these deals.

We are slow but we are steady. JF-17s industrial base is hardly 10 to 15 years old. Yet the guys here want to take on developed nations with 70+ years of rich experience of wins and failures.

Moreover now a days small countries which are targeted by us to sell arms usually buy arms for political support and security. Prime example is Qatar and other gulf countries. They buy arms and in return get suuport of these countries. India is buying weapons from France and in return France is supporting them economically and also politically.

 

[DrWatson775]

I'm almost in agreement with you -- it's surprising why no JF-17 was used in the operation probably the higher ups didn't have confidence in the air craft to perform the task that was needed? If this so it doesn't play well into the marketing of this jet as well.

Another poster above you posted our BLK 1 wouldn't stand up to Teja which isn't even in production doesn't bode well either, and have to rely on the BLK 3; I really have to question the reliability of this craft. The J-10 would have overall been the better aircraft to invest money in.

PAF used JF17s both in A-A and A-G roles in the Feb 2019 engagement. Two JF17s dropped bombs with REKs along with Mirages in the A-G role. Four other JF17s were escorts in A-A role (in addition to several F16s). Whoever got the chance to shoot their air to air weapons (F16s in this case) were almost certainly best located for that role at the time in relation to where the IAF planes were coming from/threatening the strike package. Cant remember who but someone once said that the great M.M.Alam was not only a skilled pilot but also very lucky; as soon as he would go up for a mission/CAP, IAF planes would likely be around. It wasn't MM Alam but actually Imtiaz Bhatti who flew the most number of combat missions in the 1965 war.

Quite frankly I am fed up with this aircraft and this Jf17 mantra especially how we mislead our and international community after 27 Feb that we have used JF17... too low even blind can tell you what we have done with India was completely based on Fsola... that's what I am saying since day ONE and look at what we have done recently. Not a single name of JF17 in the entire Op Swift presentation in the PAF museum.

This aircraft is a joke for me... BlK1 Blk 2 Blk3 is now raptor killer shit soon Blk4 V might target B2, Raptor, F35 single-handedly I mean... too much... Have you seen the two-seater? clearly evident some dumb **** who doesn't have any idea about the aesthetic of aerodynamic & design just based on the requirement like we have to make a Suzuki Mehran for 10 people just extended the length of the car without using brain.. the two-seater of JF17 looks like a bulky pregnant shit. I hate this aircraft more than anyone else now. BS marketing strategy ...

This is a highly sophistcated, complex and competitive market. Every single country knows that the aircraft is Chinese and without China, Pakistan not even capable to sell it. The engine is another issue. Sweden after such strong backing with Euro tagged still failed to sell Gripen.

Please understand this point and let it rest - when the Gen from ISPR said F16s were not used, he meant they were not used in the A-G role for bombing as it is important to look at the context of what was being discussed immediately before this statement. It was also important to control the narrative at that crucial point so the US would not come knocking (as anything can be expected from the White House these days). This has been clarified by Kaiser Tufail in his blogpost (F16s fired their AIM120s) so if propping up JF17s was the aim then there was no need by K Tufail to do this as there was no official or even semi-official confirmation of whether 16s or 17s shot down the IAF jets before K. Tufail published online (as far as I understand).

 

[Raider 21]

I dont know who wants to hear this. But PAF is 120% satisfied with JF-17 and its performance metrics in all the 3 roles of A2A, A2G, A2Sea.

It is complete BS that pilots consider it a joke or PAF's leadership did not have confidence in JF-17s ability on Feb 27. In fact on the contrary, Apart from Mirages, JF-17s were the only interceptors which actually violated Indian airspace that day. JF-17s have practically replaced F-16s from CAP's along the eastern and western borders. Which means PAF has now the time and the assets to further explore F-16s under the ambit of TDS/ACEs.

Last but not least, the systems of JF-17 are still unknown to IAF. They have trouble identifying its radar emissions since IAF has been exercising with F-16s for decades. KLJ-7 is something which is unknown to the world. And in this business of air combat, surprise plays a pivotal role.

Hence, all those members who are speculating regarding JF-17s inferior performance vis a vis PAF's actual requirements are either making it up or they are talking to the wrong people/officers.

As far as exports are concerned. It has been rightly pointed out that Sweds have had challenges with Gripen, Pakistan is still a kid in the global fighter industry. Before investing billions in JF-17s, any country would think twice. Plus it has happened multiple times that Pakistan has approached countries operating F-5s, F-7s, Mig 21s for the potential sale of JF-17s, the US intervenes and offer them used F-16 Block 40/42s with CCIP upgrade and 8000 additional hours on the airframe. Still a good deal.

The Myanmar deal was secured by PAC itself. It was due to Burma killings that Pakistan had to distance itself from Myanmar and proceed without marketing the handing over/taking over the jets at Kamra.

Lets get real for once please.

China still pressured for the JF-17 deliveries to Myanmar.

 

[Windjammer]

What about the other military jets that flew. They had easily more military aircraft than what the Paris air show had.

What about them, i did say it's a world class event but draws more interest from rich individuals than anywhere else.....hence you wouldn't find Lambos and Ferraris marketed at PAS.

 

[sohail.ishaque]

B3 will be on equal terms with it. Older blocks espacially B1 will be decimated.

How can B3 is going to be on equal terms with Tejas. Tejas is a super fighter. There was a reason Tejas was not involved in Feb skirmish. It is an insult for such a super fighter to fight against jf17 and so it never allowed Thunder to have the honor of fighting against Tejas. Kudos to you and your Indian mata pitta

 

[TsAr]

That is right.

Military contracts and deals are only partially made on 'capability' of the system itself.

For instance, even if we agree that LCA is superior on paper to JF-17. Malaysians will still choose JF-17 to avoid 'looking bad' in the Islamic world or it can go the other way round only due to economic considerations of huge Indian imports from Malaysia. The question of capability goes out of the window here.

Furthermore, in military contracts, there are complex offsets involved. Countries want to manufacture a few things themselves and minus its cost from the cost of the aircraft. Even worse, barter deals are made. You buy X amount of minerals from us and minus its cost from the deal. Pakistan is in no position to navigate these deals.

We are slow but we are steady. JF-17s industrial base is hardly 10 to 15 years old. Yet the guys here want to take on developed nations with 70+ years of rich experience of wins and failures.

@airomerix brother you nailed it perfectly........

 

[Green Arrow]

No ,the facility is well defended all of our sensitive installations are in safe hands

I won’t say that. We have dealt a big blow in the past due to lack of security on our military installation. Attack on Mehran airbase was the classic example of our negligence.

 

[araz]

You can feel about that if you want, its not the aircraft's fault, which is fine as it is. The fault is in the poor marketing of the aircraft and the general Pakistani mentality of doing the bare minimum. And to set the record straight, the JF-17 was used in the Operation Swift Retort, along with Mirages and F-16s in both AG roles as well as providing top cover. The only person who initially hinted that the kills were from JF-17 was a retired PAF officer, not the best source of information. Even then, plenty of people were skeptical of the claim including another retired PAF officer and people on this forum even. Anyways, that is not the aircrafts fault. F-16s happened to get both kills, and regardless, PAF came on top.

The part where the marketing fails is in the promotion of the aircraft, that includes taking the aircraft to more than just 1 show per year, materials that PAF/PAC puts out (second rate brochures with terrible layouts and even fake pictures of the aircraft, almost no pictures or videos of smart munitions being carried or released so show off its capabilities. Heck you can even find Dassault's very well done documentaries on Rafale, Tiger and even their aircraft carrier and nuclear subs on Amazon Prime Video. Thats marketing 101. Here however we have people trying to photoshop out serial numbers as if thats some state secret.

Take the most recent Dubai Airshow, what did we see of the JF-17 except an outdated and crappy pamphlet to show case our most expensive and sophisticated weapon system? A misspelled banner? Which btw is not the first time that has happened. Says a lot if you cant even get the spelling right, how will you assure customers about your quality control. The other thing that has ALWAYS irked me is that everyone ever interviewed about the JF-17 in the last 10 years, without fail, always mentions how "cheap" the aircraft is. Get that word out of your vocabulary. A $30MM jet is not cheap by any standard and that is also not a quality to describe anything you are selling, unless its to a kabariya.

Finally, though people have been talking about the failure to produce a 2-seat version early on for some time, and I agree it was a big oversight, its not insurmountable. If Lockheed can come to an event with a flight simulator to show off the capabilities of its 40 year old fighter that almost everyone in the world already knows about, why don't we have the ability to take one with us every time we go to a huge exhibit like Dubai or Paris Airshow or even one in China. I can bet people would be lining up to see the simulator and trying to get a few minutes of virtual flight time in it. That would be completely acceptable in lieu of having a twin-seater jet there and a lot less expensive as well.

I hope PAC/PAF takes note of the glaring errors they have been making so far. It takes the same amount of money to design and print a shitty looking pamphlet as it does a nice looking one. Every picture of the JF-17 should be of a fully loaded aircraft with different weapons it can carry for the different roles, including A-A, A-G (with REK, LGBs, LDP), ASMs, and ARMs. Also every picture should display the refueling probe. These are pretty simple and common sense things. Pick up any aviation magazine and you will see how the competition displays its products. Even LIFT trainers showcase more capabilities in a single picture than we do with our jet.

Also, if you are going to display models, show a cutaway with a mockup AESA radar instead. We have seen plenty of simple models by now over the last 10 years and as has everyone else. Need to up the game here guys.

I fully agree that aircraft marketing needs a lot more effort. World over the big firms employ professionals who can market their products where as PAF relies on its Officers who perhaps are not the right people for the job.
However beyond the world of marketing PAF is taking baby steps in the croc infested waters of the aviation industry. The big two rule the roost and even China is not there yet as it cannot yet produce reliable and world cknowledged Jet engines. The only reason The red bear has not chewed you and spat you out is there is currently no competing product in its inventory which JFT could challange. So till our products mature and we start taking strides in the mirky waters we will have to be confined to picking up scraps left over from the big 2.
It must also be added that the JFT is the first product from PAF and Pakistan. We are reliant on the Chinese for our development cycles and only now are we stepping out from under the shadows to exert an effort of our own. I think thisis a good strategic step as it allows us to gain independence and start flying solo. In future our products may come round to challanging hte Chinese in their market and the Pak Chinese dynamics may change. We need to start flying solo before this happens. Please note that this is natural evolution of products and no adverse reflection on the Chinese or the Paks in any case.
A

 

[Haris Ali2140]

I fully agree that aircraft marketing needs a lot more effort. However beyond the world of marketinPAF is taking babysteps in the croc infested waters of the aviation industry. The big two rule the roost and even China is not there yet as it cannot yet produce reliable and world cknowledged Jet engines. The only reason The red bear has not chewed you and spat you out is there is currently no competing product in its inventory which JFT could challange. So till our products mature and we start taking strides in the mirky waters we will have to be confined to picking up scraps left over from the big 2.
A

Okay. Why do peolpe think that weapon systems needs marketing like cars and mobiles?
Should PAC distribute pamphlets? Or they should advertise it using google ads?
Why do @Stealth thinks that any air force will buy a jet based on its looks? Have you seen the competitor F-35?

As @airomerix said there are multiple factors involved into buying a weapon system. Hell nowadays even capabilities offered takes a back seat some times due to political,economical and security reasons. Take a look at Qatar. They don't even have men to fly jets. But they are buying jets from every country.

Pakistan is poor country who has made a jet with the help from China. We have no aviation history. Our economy is in shambles. We are surviving on loans. Everything is fucked up in this country and people on PDF expects that JF-17 will sell like hot cakes. They want PAC to compete with the likes of Boeing,LM, Dassault and Sukhoi.
@Quwa Whats the budget of PAF?

 

[StormBreaker]

Two of my friends are currently flying BLK52. One was the part of Red Flag exercise including with Chinese in China. I have asked both of them multiple times about the JF17, its performance with the competitors and the comparison btw JF17 with F16 and every time both of them are not much interested to talk about in detail. But the way they explained a little bit of information, anyone can easily get an idea about the JFT is not even in the league. They're not happy with the JF17 with respect to so called state of the art thingy or the way PAF presenting this into the international market. Once he said "bhai ye gari nahi jo bik jayegi market bohat competitive aur demanding hey, koi adhi cheez koi nahe kareedta aglay presentation letay hi 300 ki list pakra detay hain ye ye features ismay hain yaa nahe or agar add hongay tu per unit cost aur kitna karcha hoga additional modules ka aur ye karayga koon aur kitnay waqt may aur istarhan ki 1000 sawaal aur jiska jawab hamari administration kay paas nahe... kyonkay ham uthna he karsakhtay hain jitne okaat hey... agar kise nay roo pit kay utha b lya market say tu uskay liye bhi hamko pehlay acha khasa demand features ka entertain karna parayga jiske abhe hamaray paas capability b nahe again China ki achi khasi input required hey.... Americans Euro aur France ka game hey woh aap ki demand bhi pori karsakhtay hain aur aap ko aap kay 300 kay bajaye 30000 sawaaloon ka jawab b daysakhtay hain aap ki hey itne capability? Bilkul b nahe... its a billion dollars of game"

He said It is just a second or secondary car inside the roof, nothing special about it. The comparison btw F16 V JF17 is like a joke for us (for Pilots) whenever we see our legends busy in doing comparisons on the TV channels... for us theyre misleading everyone....

Anyone who compares a F-16 to Thunder is plain stupid anyway. Thunders were never meant to be F-16s rather as replacements to aging F-7s and Mirages. Compare them with Thunder, you will find a good light weight fighter with modern capabilities, able to deal in combat with modern fighters of adversaries IF USED TACTICALLY.
F-16s are in a class of their own. They were, are and will always be a beauty, nothing can replace, NOT EVEN F-35 !!!
If only, we had gotten our fleet to 200, there would be no need of Thunders. Heck, we should have allocated money for Buying F-16s thorough 100% payments rather than spending on regular golf championships or lavish 5 star international CHEFS for each dish.

 

[Raider 21]

What about them, i did say it's a world class event but draws more interest from rich individuals than anywhere else.....hence you wouldn't find Lambos and Ferraris marketed at PAS.

Paris Air Show has less influence on military aircraft. The scope for military aircraft has increased a lot at Dubai Air Show in comparison. It was not as significant as the 2017 one, but the marketing of the Block 70/72 for example, believe it or not, comes out with the display of the Block 60 being flown by UAE. It works in both favours, UAE has their display for themselves and Lockheed gets to market out a potential jet to a potential customer.

 

[StormBreaker]

I personally love Mirages more than Thunders. Deltas are beauty anyway, one can ride a F-16/Thunder but it takes real dedication and skills to master a DELTA.
Hence why i have a liking for Mirage 2000-5/9 and J-10C.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi

Some great posts on the subject matter.

Will confuse the heck out of the enemy about what is the truth and what is not about this aircraft.

The naysayers have done a great job, the yessirs have left no stone unturned.

i just want to say to “some” posters, in your zeal in not having your air force look bad, please don’t spill out all your guts About the JF17 to protect its honor and name.

this is weapons world, truth is the last thing we need to publish about our machine.