PAF more vulnerable than ever: Ex IAF officer

[Preacher]

So vulnerable that..... We have started exporting fighter jets

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is more vulnerable than ever before even as long-range standoff weapons fired from planes and beyond visual-range missiles and drones have taken over in the modern air warfare where daring air raids with fighter jets flying across border may not be needed anymore.

These views were expressed by experts and former pilots, who have seen air battle during the 1965 Indo-Pak War, while debating “Air Power Lessons Learnt from the 1965 War and their Implementation” on the last day of the Military literature Festival (December 7-9) here today.

Responding to a question about the now role of the Indian Air Force in the context of Pakistan and China, Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd), who is Additional Director General of think-tank Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), said: “A tandem manned and unmanned mission will be a reality. A human sitting inside a manned plane (fighter jet or transporter) will control the UAV that will be flying ahead to fire at a target. There will be a human behind the decision”.
He said the capability existed to have long-range strikes, “but unless we have total air dominance, the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) facilities make it difficult. Yes, the beyond visual range (BVR) missiles are here to stay”, he said, adding “space-based weapons are far away. We are too far to see something fired from space at a ground target”.

New Delhi-based Pushpinder Singh, author of several books on military, including one on the PAF, said: “The PAF is more vulnerable than ever before.” In 1965, he said, the “PAF was cocky, they were young”. Deep down inside they knew if they made a mistake, they could be wiped out.
“They had this plan to strike at IAF bases, but they fumbled and messed up.” However, he said, in the past five to seven years, the PAF honed its skill in fighting a mountain battle due to its efforts in North Waziristan.

Jagan Pilarisetti, author of two books — one each on 1965 and 1971 wars —pointed out that during the 1965 battle, India did not have the air-to-air missile that the PAF had. “There was no strategy to win the war. We were just reacting. Lessons were learnt and in 1971 it was a different no-holds-barred fight.”

Air Marshal Bharat Kumar (retd) moderated the session. Group Captain RS Chhatwal discussed the role of radars in helping fighter pilots.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/paf-more-vulnerable-than-ever-ex-officer/696152.html

They have been saying that since the day PAF was established, yet here we all are, the same as ever if not greater.

 

[Preacher]

Hi,

That is the " dumbest " post on the board today---or maybe of the year---.

End of the year is here---so you might get the award---.

What does exporting and aircraft has to do with the ability of aircraft---.

You export hockey sticks---yet your team is in shi-tters---you export soccer ballz for the world cup---and your teams is way beyond shi-tters---.

Hi, Let me make myself more clear.
I don't think that giving priority to arms export would be the wisest thing PAF can do if they were lagging that far behind in the technology race. The topic of the post is not limited to " ability of the aircraft" where the 'Vulnerability of Pakistan Air Force is being discussed.

btw , Comparing sports export with arms export is such a clever thing to do; PAF knows best!

 

[imadul]

Indian elections March 26, 2019.
....and to win elections modi can miscalculate. This talk could be a warm up action.

 

[Trango Towers]

I think we are vulnerable because we are in transition period

You are falling for bullshit too??

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then why Indian armed forces are waiting? go ahead and launch an offensive.....

And what, dear Sir, gave you the impression that the IAF has an attack on Pakistan as an objective?

Its Pushpinder a writer saying this, not the AVM bahadur.

Or Are Pushpinder and AVM Bahadur the same person?

Totally different. The AVM is Manmohan Bahadur. The writer is Pushpinder Singh. Both known in their areas of competence; running an air force is not in Pushpinder's area of competence, writing books is.

Yes, PAF can hold advantage in war on Kashmir terrain due to this experience

???

In what way? Is it the thinking that a war fought in the Vale will be similar to a counter-insurgency operation in Waziristan? The imagination boggles.

Is this really you, @Signalian, or has somebody hacked your account?

 

[Mav3rick]

Then why Indian armed forces are waiting? go ahead and launch an offensive.....

Because unlike my countrymen, Indians fear the economic repercussions of a war in the sub continent ....... and the possibility of any such war escalating out of control to the point of going Nuclear.

That PAF today is more vulnerable than ever is a factual statement. The 270 odd MKIs alone can wipe out the entire PAF, within Pakistani airspace and that is the cold hard fact!!!

Yes, PAF can hold advantage in war on Kashmir terrain due to this experience

Another ignorant comment. PAF's experience during her bombing missions will help her against IAF's Fighters???

 

[Joe Shearer]

If your aircraft is launching a missile with 550km range (raad) how good is that mig cover???

By the way thats what this article is arguing stand off weapons and although i do agree with most he said kindly appreciate u are arguing exactly opposite


Future is of stand off weapons and it will be difficult to defend with missiles and Migs...
Take syria. For example where s 400 is being humiliated on daily basis

Air Force enthusiasts, generally of the western bloc, have been arguing this through the Cold War; in a generic way, air power was touted by Giulio Douhet and Billy Mitchell, and what was essential and relevant was blown out of proportion by the bomber mafia in the RAF, by the dive-bombing enthusiasts in the Luftwaffe and the lunatics in the USAAF, and later, the USAF.

Reality is far more nuanced, as every generation has found out, the hard way.

Actually the biggest suppliers of cutting edge Air weapons are the US, Russia and Israel. And none of them are American friends. A smattering of European countries too make fighters like the Grippen or Typhoon but if Americans tell them not to sell, they won't.

No clue how good or bad the Chinese planes are. But no country in its right mind should have them as their primary air weapons.

Not even the PLAAF. And they don't.

There are several things which our military dont show publicly to keep element of surprise against enemy, they show some systems years after induction.

PAF knows that capable 5th gen will boost their capabilities to many folds against enemy and will defuse enemy air defence capabilities.

Are you talking about the 5 squadrons of F 35s lurking in hangars built into mountainsides that you don't want anyone to know about?

 

[Maxpane]

You are falling for bullshit too??

sir isnt it true?

 

[Signalian]

Another ignorant comment. PAF's experience during her bombing missions will help her against IAF's Fighters???

On the contrary, its ignorant to ignore one part (A2G Ops-coordination with PA and SF, which PAF didnt have exp in mountains before) while blatantly mentioning the other part (A2A).

???

In what way? Is it the thinking that a war fought in the Vale will be similar to a counter-insurgency operation in Waziristan? The imagination boggles.

Is this really you, @Signalian, or has somebody hacked your account?

PAF had to work with PA this time, whether it was appreciated by the brass or not, something that hasn't been achieved before.

 

[Maarkhoor]

And what, dear Sir, gave you the impression that the IAF has an attack on Pakistan as an objective?

Bhai Sahib Jo log breakfast Lahore jim khana mien kerna chahtey houn aor unka JOC apni jeep chawal k khait mien chour ker baag gaya ho un se kisi aor cheez ki kiya tawaqa ki ja sakti hai....

 

[Basel]

Air Force enthusiasts, generally of the western bloc, have been arguing this through the Cold War; in a generic way, air power was touted by Giulio Douhet and Billy Mitchell, and what was essential and relevant was blown out of proportion by the bomber mafia in the RAF, by the dive-bombing enthusiasts in the Luftwaffe and the lunatics in the USAAF, and later, the USAF.

Reality is far more nuanced, as every generation has found out, the hard way.



Not even the PLAAF. And they don't.



Are you talking about the 5 squadrons of F 35s lurking in hangars built into mountainsides that you don't want anyone to know about?

Nope but some squadrons are in China and PAF is mastering those since years and when war broke out additional equipment which is currently not in Pakistan will be available for fighting war.

Once ex defence minister said that Pakistani have squadrons in China which will be available at times of war.

On the contrary, its ignorant to ignore one part (A2G Ops-coordination with PA and SF, which PAF didnt have exp in mountains before) while blatantly mentioning the other part (A2A).


PAF had to work with PA this time, whether it was appreciated by the brass or not, something that hasn't been achieved before.

For the first time in NCW conditions PA, PAF and even PN will fight as one force as PN ground units will support PA in hitting targets inside India if war broke out.

@Rashid Mahmood

 

[Maarkhoor]

That PAF today is more vulnerable than ever is a factual statement. The 270 odd MKIs alone can wipe out the entire PAF, within Pakistani airspace and that is the cold hard fact!!!

Out of 270 how many war ready ? 46% and what about China did they left whole Chinese border unchecked?

 

[CHI RULES]

Because unlike my countrymen, Indians fear the economic repercussions of a war in the sub continent ....... and the possibility of any such war escalating out of control to the point of going Nuclear.

That PAF today is more vulnerable than ever is a factual statement. The 270 odd MKIs alone can wipe out the entire PAF, within Pakistani airspace and that is the cold hard fact!!!



Another ignorant comment. PAF's experience during her bombing missions will help her against IAF's Fighters???

The MKIs have their own disadvantages, at any given time all 270 shall not be available but after the few steps taken by India to improve their availability it shall be max up 60-70% at most, meanwhile India can't afford to place all assets against Pakistan. On other hand if we go for A2A assets PAF though lacks in numbers yet have quality assets to counter IAF unlike past. PAF has also stocked/improved the availability of necessary spares for F16s. The MLU F16 if not superior still have a fare chance in any A2A combat against our adversary so far. Pak BVR and WVR missiles are quite capable, meanwhile by 2021 we shall get capable HOBS WVRs and may be long range BVRs like PL-15. Meanwhile for penetration missions/ to counter Rafael we may get interim solution in shape of J10C in near future. IAF may face irreparable loss in case of A2A engagements. Pakistan may be lacking in SAMs as in the field our AD units mostly have short range SAMs only, and limited Medium range SAMs have been mostly deployed to defend sensitive installations.For few big cities we should at least install low to medium range SAMs layers with capable Radars to counter immediate threats.

Vulnerabilities shall always be there for a smaller country, question is how it responds the emerging threats.

 

[Joe Shearer]

On the contrary, its ignorant to ignore one part (A2G Ops-coordination with PA and SF, which PAF didnt have exp in mountains before) while blatantly mentioning the other part (A2A).


PAF had to work with PA this time, whether it was appreciated by the brass or not, something that hasn't been achieved before.

A damn' good point!

Bhai Sahib Jo log breakfast Lahore jim khana mien kerna chahtey houn aor unka JOC apni jeep chawal k khait mien chour ker baag gaya ho un se kisi aor cheez ki kiya tawaqa ki ja sakti hai....

Aieee, bus kar, yaar, yeh purani ghaseeti peeti jhootein kitna bar galat batana hai.

Till today after extensive investigation, I have not found a single source for Muchu Chaudhuri having said this, and as for this unfortunate, I gave you the whole sad story myself in Harbaksh Singh's words. None of all that takes away from the initial aggression by Pakistan, so what does this prove?

My point is still valid.

Nope but some squadrons are in China and PAF is mastering those since years and when war broke out additional equipment which is currently not in Pakistan will be available for fighting war.

Once ex defence minister said that Pakistani have squadrons in China which will be available at times of war.

Jeete raho, bachche log.

For the first time in NCW conditions PA, PAF and even PN will fight as one force as PN ground units will support PA in hitting targets inside India if war broke out.

@Rashid Mahmood

I would dearly love to see PN ground units in action. Will they dismount their ships' guns and bring them along? The RN did that on occasion.