PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[farooqbhai007]

This X account is biggest piece of horse sh!!t. a 20-22 yo kid operates it

how do you know for sure?

 

[arslank03]

I don't have time for theoretical examples or anecdotes.

China has still done the most for Pakistan, and CPEC is in Pakistan's interests

Got it, CPEC is in Pakistan's interests, nothing says Pakistan's best interests are at heart than exploitative business practices and insane loan agreements with zero transparency lol.

The J-10 is currently flying with Turkish F-16s (although I agree with you)

is it? I cant find anything

 

[arslank03]

Hi,

Not a prudent comment.

You need correction in you english diction---.

Downgrade equipment is not the same as equipment coming with conditions---.

I mean to ask---what level of illiteracy that you hold to make these two totally different things sound as one and the same---.

Chinese projects 3 -4 time in pak is because pak deal makers take large bribes---.

lol, dont worry about my literacy, paindu.

Perhaps its time you brush up on your comprehension, as they were two separate statements.

I'd love for you to share how chinese equipment "comes with no conditions" lol, once again, let me know when you will see J-10c's flying alongside NATO or Turkish birds, or even, when you will see Pakistani modifications to it (local wpns integration etc), something which the chinese even blocked on the JF-17, which JamD has mentioned numerous times. On top of that, do enlighten me about Chinese business practices, withholding part numbers from PAC, coercing them to buy things they dont need- selling only packages, withholding technical data and documents, the list goes on. This is not just a planes thing, HIT has had the same experience. Just because you are UNAWARE of Chinese conditions, does NOT mean they do not exist. Chinese twist our arm to extract every dollar out of us, dollars provided by them as loans, then paid back at silly interest rates later. The Chinese have found a cash cow in Pakistan ironically.

But of course, Pakistanis have such a beggar and subservient mentality that can be seen in Mastan's closing remark, where he pins the blame on his people, as opposed to pinning or at the very least sharing the blame with the Chinese lol.

Chinese projects 3 -4 time in pak is because pak deal makers take large bribes---.

I wonder how much they pay you for your services

Thank you for highlighting these points. The partnership with China has run its course. China is not interested in propping up Pakistan against India, instead they intend to sell their subpar equipment above market rates to it. Otherwise if they truly thought it as some ally, they would have sending loads of surplus military hardware for free similar to how NATO is sending to Ukraine.

China has been able to scam Pakistan by selling subpar at exorbitant prices. This includes the power plants. Why? It's because Pakistanis are very easy to fool and take advantage of, or even easier to bribe. Just as the west had been extracting benefit from Pakistan at the expense of its people, China intends to do the same.

The only solution to Pakistan's problems is to stand up independently on its own feet. It must increase its industrial capacity, its exports, etc. It must improve its education system to churn out startups that will become industrial conglomerates. This is a do or die situation. There is no alternative. No more depending on US, China, or anyone but themselves.

Literally, the ONLY aligned interest between China and Pakistan is containment of India, that's it. China has two interests, Containing India and then securing and growing itself, at ANY cost, including countries. As seen by the insane debt traps being laid out globally.

 

[arslank03]

We might soon, on the other hand US never allowed our F-16s to participate in exercises with PLAAF. And they closely monitor them.


Everyone does this



This is not true at all? PAF would've ordered more F-16s / upgrade kits in a heartbeat if Congress was willing to approve it.

"We might soon, on the other hand US never allowed our F-16s to participate in exercises with PLAAF. And they closely monitor them."

"might" based off of what lol.
I follow very closely and see zero indication of such an event happening.

"Everyone does this"
Yes and no, 'downgraded' equipment in this sense refers to capping performance or deleting equipment, i do not know of any serious weapons exporter beyond China and Russia doing so. Infact, the west regularly sells its own stocks of weapons to nations abroad. The only times you will see downgrades are to comply with treaties, i.e MTCR, and even then, they are loose at best. The US attempted a policy of downgraded weapons, it failed instantly and they rolled back.


"This is not true at all? PAF would've ordered more F-16s / upgrade kits in a heartbeat if Congress was willing to approve it."
Every failed recent time acquisition from the US direct to Pakistan has been a case of financing, Financial assistance is gone therefore Pak needed to pay to receive delivery, Pak did not pay, deliveries did not commence. Read into the AH1Z saga. It was literally, no money->no heli. Same with the last tranche of F-16s too, no financing, pay it yourself or dont buy it at all.

 

[arslank03]

Bro, I really don't understand but TBH, it seems you are bit bias against China.

You tell me honestly, Which one has more probability to happen?
J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?

China definitely has proved to be trustworthy ally. The reason is we have commonality of objectives in the region. We share same neighborhood, we have a physical road connection (Karakoram highway, 1000s of pak china workers died making this incredible route), We share the common enemy. As a student of history, even I seems to be forgetting how numerous times only one nation stood by Pakistan when all others were at other side in intl diplomacy, intl forums, UN security council.
Recently, some mistrust might have developed and that's because Pakistani establishment moving heaven and earth to please the americans. Any chinese cold shoulder from now on is totally justified.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @arslank03 (Tagging bilal, since you are in agreement with arslan). I wonder why we always tend to be in china bashing mode even when the history proves something else.

Its never been "ALWAYS" the same story. Number of times we had money and we even paid money, but instead we were given expired wheat instead of the F-16s. I wonder how come we forget history or forget parts of history just to make a point.

You guys are well aware, that we were being bullied by the US. Those times there was no alternative available (As China's tech was far behind at 2nd gen fighters), so US knew we could not go anywhere else. You guys know that we received AMRAAMs after 30 years of F-16. Our F-16s were toothless in entire 90's and 2000s without BVR capability. US only allowed to sell us AMRAAMS when entire NATO supplychain was passing through Pak and another important point that came in discussions of US policy makers during those times was that Pakistan already receiving BVR capability from China (SD-10). We were at the mercy of Indian BVR capability the whole time and we begged the US and never got it when we needed the most. How can anyone forget those 2 decades ??

Secondly, the kind of monitoring PAF F-16s are going through is not even remotely comparable with J-10Cs. This is a curse for any country with a bit of dignity but we don't really care. (ref: https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/h...e-with-pakistan-can-help-it-deal-with-turkey/)

Apart from this there are numerous collaborations in many sensitive technologies including the missile programs, nuclear, both civil and otherwise. Thinking of such collaborations with the United States is unthinkable at first place. You do it with your trusted ally.

I can give several examples, I will just give one. Do you expect US to give us arms if we are at imminent risk of war with the india? I give you example, we begged US in previous wars and nothing happened despite being (non-nato ally BS), In 2002, we remember when indian and Pakistani forces were eye ball to eye ball, Chinese shipped F-7PGs within no time. This is called friendship. Atleast it was like that in those times.

I think all of us, including myself should try to change our views and try see things without the bais that has developed over the years. China is not a saint as well, In the end, country's relationships are based on mutual interests. If we realize, we have tremendous mutual interests with the power that's sitting just next instead the one which uses Pakistan as a tissue paper.

Edit:
Bilal & Arslan, Guys if you think: always no money and so no F-16s is a valid argument. Then why following happened:
1- J-10Cs are not coming free, eventually we are going to pay for it. We bought a new platform. PAF was flying F-16s for 4 decades, might have loved just 10 initial order of F-16 block 70 or even 52 but geopolitics 101 that PAF is aware that US would not have approved the sales. see point 2 why.
2- Forget F-16s, the US did not even approved the engines for Turk helicopters- how on earth they would have approved block-70 or even block 52 ?
3- and why in past we kept lobbying for F-16s, we obviously had the money in the past. Why instead of our even paid amounts we were given Wheat instead of the jets.

Yes, the US may only sell you some stuff when they need you as a hired goon.

im going to try and answer in the shortest manner possible because i cant particularly be bothered to repeat myself over and over.

"You tell me honestly, Which one has more probability to happen?
J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?"

Neither will happen.

China definitely has proved to be trustworthy ally.

"Not the same as the above, but it was interesting to note the chairman of ARDIC directly calling out “friendly countries” for not providing or outright banning our access to software, hardware, designs and models etc. He even repeated it twice, you can tell he’s frustrated about it. I noticed this same frustration from the officers and engineers there when I went. And he mentions it directly on camera too, I know it’s not much, but I’m glad to see even this amount of a backbone, that they’re not just signing “Pak-Chin Dosti Zindabad” and actually saying things as they are. The local production of VT4 is a much bigger example of the Chinese not being as sincere as needed about defense than the JF-17 and J-10C."

"PAF tried integrating "a local payload" (possibly Ra'ad, maybe H2/H4, or even IREK) and the JF-17 flight control system went into a "safe mode" because it didn't recognize what had been mounted. This had some pretty disastrous consequences. So anytime we want to integrate a new system onto the JF-17, we have to collaborate with China to do so."
on top of that, i had a first hand discussion with the manager of the Avionics Production Factory at Dubai Airshow where they were desperate to find an alternative supplier to Chinese parts due to their exploitative and extortionate business practices.
I wonder why the PAF also did not commit or join hands with China in the NGFA program, instead going to Turkey who is not as experienced, who is also a wayyy bigger gamble to put money on vs China and on top of that, is offering a product with ITAR controlled engines, when China, the all weather, bhai bhai super trustworthy and reliable ally has two designs, J-31 and J-35 which they want to push to the PAF, both designs which have way more funding, support and are way further ahead, why does the PAF not select the more risk free, trustworthy and reliable partner?
Hint, it has something to do with them being unreliable and untrustworthy lol


Sounds like a trustworthy ally to me. Very loan shark esque behaviour almost, and we all know, loan sharks are very trustworthy people.

We share same neighborhood, we have a physical road connection

So what, we share the same neighborhood with India and Afghanistan too, even ethnic groups, common history too, whats your point.

KKH was a means of once again, protecting Chinese interest's. Blockade of malacca=re route Chinese goods.

Why do you think this is a gesture of goodwill i struggle to understand.

We share the common enemy.

So what. Literally, so what, Israel and the gulf also share a common enemy, it is only now that relations warm, even then, those interactions are very limited. I dont understand why Indias presence should mean Pakistan needs to be rinsed of every last penny by China?

"As a student of history, even I seems to be forgetting how numerous times only one nation stood by Pakistan when all others were at other side in intl diplomacy, intl forums, UN security council.
Recently, some mistrust might have developed and that's because Pakistani establishment moving heaven and earth to please the americans. Any chinese cold shoulder from now on is totally justified."

Really... seriously? Just a google search would get rid of your jazbaat

"
Its never been "ALWAYS" the same story. Number of times we had money and we even paid money, but instead we were given expired wheat instead of the F-16s. I wonder how come we forget history or forget parts of history just to make a point.
You guys are well aware, that we were being bullied by the US. Those times there was no alternative available (As China's tech was far behind at 2nd gen fighters), so US knew we could not go anywhere else. You guys know that we received AMRAAMs after 30 years of F-16. Our F-16s were toothless in entire 90's and 2000s without BVR capability. US only allowed to sell us AMRAAMS when entire NATO supplychain was passing through Pak and another important point that came in discussions of US policy makers during those times was that Pakistan already receiving BVR capability from China (SD-10). We were at the mercy of Indian BVR capability the whole time and we begged the US and never got it when we needed the most. How can anyone forget those 2 decades ??"

This is utter silliness, this embargo was as a result of nuclear tests, something we were wholly aware of, it was going to happen, it would happen today, it would happen tomorrow, it would happen yesterday. Nuclear weapons have always been a red line and will lead to sanctions and embargos, alongside that, in total fairness, the US tried to build up a significant strike capability with a massive package of A-7's alongside F-16s and i think F5's/20's? for the PAF in the hopes they would not go nuclear. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. Consequences came with the nuclear tests, sanctions were enacted by most of the worlds powers and support for our programs was cut, this was the reality. Im not sure why people seem to think this is exclusive to the west either, Russia does this, China does too, step out of line, say hello to sanctions and also no more support. Why is this a difficult concept to grasp?
Literally, in the modern times, the last F-16 buy was stopped due to a lack of funds, the AH1Z's were stopped as a result of lack of Funds. The US literally approved naval weapons for the PN, RIM-116, ships, collaboration between US firms and PN, GT's for PN ships etc.

we begged US in previous wars and nothing happened despite being (non-nato ally BS), In 2002, we remember when indian and Pakistani forces were eye ball to eye ball, Chinese shipped F-7PGs within no time. This is called friendship. Atleast it was like that in those times.

This is also funny, "China shipped F-7PG's in no time"
you mean the F-7PG's that were signed for in a deal over a year prior to the standoff lol? It was a contractual delivery of weapons, fair enough that may have expedited it, though i doubt this as a batch of 10 f-7PG per year seems standard in terms of delivery timelines anyway, but lol, China had contractual obligations to meet, ones that were set in stone over a year before the standoff.

"1- J-10Cs are not coming free, eventually we are going to pay for it. We bought a new platform. PAF was flying F-16s for 4 decades, might have loved just 10 initial order of F-16 block 70 or even 52 but geopolitics 101 that PAF is aware that US would not have approved the sales. see point 2 why."
Chinese loans,
F-16V deliveries are backlogged until 2028+. Bulgaria will receive theirs in 2027.

"

Forget F-16s, the US did not even approved the engines for Turk helicopters- how on earth they would have approved block-70 or even block 52 ?

The US approved both AH1Z and F-16s previously, under the condition we pay for them.
The US approved naval weapons for the PN
The US government is not the same as it was before, geopolitics changes, the PAF obviously has confidence in its relations with the US considering they're backing a project which has the GEF404 at its heart.

and why in past we kept lobbying for F-16s, we obviously had the money in the past. Why instead of our even paid amounts we were given Wheat instead of the jets.

one time. nuclear sanctions.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bro, I really don't understand but TBH, it seems you are bit bias against China.

You tell me honestly, Which one has more probability to happen?
J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?

China definitely has proved to be trustworthy ally. The reason is we have commonality of objectives in the region. We share same neighborhood, we have a physical road connection (Karakoram highway, 1000s of pak china workers died making this incredible route), We share the common enemy. As a student of history, even I seems to be forgetting how numerous times only one nation stood by Pakistan when all others were at other side in intl diplomacy, intl forums, UN security council.
Recently, some mistrust might have developed and that's because Pakistani establishment moving heaven and earth to please the americans. Any chinese cold shoulder from now on is totally justified.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @arslank03 (Tagging bilal, since you are in agreement with arslan). I wonder why we always tend to be in china bashing mode even when the history proves something else.

Its never been "ALWAYS" the same story. Number of times we had money and we even paid money, but instead we were given expired wheat instead of the F-16s. I wonder how come we forget history or forget parts of history just to make a point.

You guys are well aware, that we were being bullied by the US. Those times there was no alternative available (As China's tech was far behind at 2nd gen fighters), so US knew we could not go anywhere else. You guys know that we received AMRAAMs after 30 years of F-16. Our F-16s were toothless in entire 90's and 2000s without BVR capability. US only allowed to sell us AMRAAMS when entire NATO supplychain was passing through Pak and another important point that came in discussions of US policy makers during those times was that Pakistan already receiving BVR capability from China (SD-10). We were at the mercy of Indian BVR capability the whole time and we begged the US and never got it when we needed the most. How can anyone forget those 2 decades ??

Secondly, the kind of monitoring PAF F-16s are going through is not even remotely comparable with J-10Cs. This is a curse for any country with a bit of dignity but we don't really care. (ref: https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/h...e-with-pakistan-can-help-it-deal-with-turkey/)

Apart from this there are numerous collaborations in many sensitive technologies including the missile programs, nuclear, both civil and otherwise. Thinking of such collaborations with the United States is unthinkable at first place. You do it with your trusted ally.

I can give several examples, I will just give one. Do you expect US to give us arms if we are at imminent risk of war with the india? I give you example, we begged US in previous wars and nothing happened despite being (non-nato ally BS), In 2002, we remember when indian and Pakistani forces were eye ball to eye ball, Chinese shipped F-7PGs within no time. This is called friendship. Atleast it was like that in those times.

I think all of us, including myself should try to change our views and try see things without the bais that has developed over the years. China is not a saint as well, In the end, country's relationships are based on mutual interests. If we realize, we have tremendous mutual interests with the power that's sitting just next instead the one which uses Pakistan as a tissue paper.

Edit:
Bilal & Arslan, Guys if you think: always no money and so no F-16s is a valid argument. Then why following happened:
1- J-10Cs are not coming free, eventually we are going to pay for it. We bought a new platform. PAF was flying F-16s for 4 decades, might have loved just 10 initial order of F-16 block 70 or even 52 but geopolitics 101 that PAF is aware that US would not have approved the sales. see point 2 why.
2- Forget F-16s, the US did not even approved the engines for Turk helicopters- how on earth they would have approved block-70 or even block 52 ?
3- and why in past we kept lobbying for F-16s, we obviously had the money in the past. Why instead of our even paid amounts we were given Wheat instead of the jets.

Yes, the US may only sell you some stuff when they need you as a hired goon.

China and Pakistan aren't allies. That has much to do with us as it does the Chinese.

Our military and political leaders have traditionally aligned themselves with the US and UK, respectively, and would never make a move without tacit US/UK approval. I'd argue that even our relationship China likely started due to Western direction, and on that basis, it doesn't surprise me that we couldn't build a deeper relationship w/China when that Western direction waned.

OTOH, the Chinese don't know how to think big from a geo-political standpoint. They structured CPEC to crudely frontload power and infrastructure at Pakistan's expense on the possibility that Pakistan would leverage it to rapidly industrialize; however, immediate Chinese interests came first, and that pursuit hurt Pakistan and pushed it even deeper into the embrace of the US (e.g., securing IMF as well as bilateral loans to plug BoP gaps).

So, if China was aiming to bring Pakistan into its orbit via CPEC, then it failed and distanced Pakistan further. Now, if the US was in China's position, it'd literally send as much FDI and favourable trade access to Pakistan to build the latter's economy and stature so that it emerges as a reliable ally (e.g., like it's doing with India).

Just because we have issues with China doesn't mean our issues with the US are gone -- we have problems with both, but for different reasons. This is the cost of not building a proactive foreign policy that clearly defines our actual national interests, and then defends them.

And no, I'm not talking about BS uncle-defined national interests at NDU that conveniently ignore Kashmir, Afghanistan, the Gulf, the Horn of Africa and literally anything else that impacts us (but leaving us bereft of any policy solutions aside from crying to the UNHCR). I'm talking about Pakistan defining an umbrella of influence that extends into Afghanistan and Central Asia, Somalia, the Arab Gulf, and Kashmir, and then viciously and relentlessly pursuing those interests in an organized way.

How? We create a real economic strategy that (1) prioritizes R&D for critical industries (e.g., gas turbines, metallurgy, pharma, etc), (2) inserts Pakistan as a producer of top-traded goods, (3) carves market access needing said goods, but at lower costs and thinner strings vs. the West, and (4) using our huge population to force favourable FDI arrangements whereby the auto-producers, consumer good producers, etc, manufacture in Pakistan with minimal imports.

In parallel, we build our military to pursue (1) a doctrine of globally-acknowledged deterrence (i.e., everyone should be afraid of our nuclear and conventional reach) and (2) industrially-fed procurement whereby we design and build what we need. The R&D in critical industries will naturally feed into it while the output from (2) and (3) will help keep our state coffers full to fund said programs.

This is what Pakistan should be, i.e,, a competitor to India, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, our leaders have continuously attached themselves as lotay to other powers, and we're suffering from it. I don't believe in closing our borders and hiding; rather, we should get out there with a stick and slap everyone around us in line so that we, they, and everyone can live in peace and prosperity. If Chinese and European fishers are turfing out Somali fishers, and in turn, creating Somali piracy, then we send our navy to get those Sino-EU fishers out of the region, dismantle Somali pirates, and get our investors to set up shop in both Baluchistan and Somalia.

 

[HerbertPervert]

im going to try and answer in the shortest manner possible because i cant particularly be bothered to repeat myself over and over.

"You tell me honestly, Which one has more probability to happen?
J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?"

Neither will happen.



"Not the same as the above, but it was interesting to note the chairman of ARDIC directly calling out “friendly countries” for not providing or outright banning our access to software, hardware, designs and models etc. He even repeated it twice, you can tell he’s frustrated about it. I noticed this same frustration from the officers and engineers there when I went. And he mentions it directly on camera too, I know it’s not much, but I’m glad to see even this amount of a backbone, that they’re not just signing “Pak-Chin Dosti Zindabad” and actually saying things as they are. The local production of VT4 is a much bigger example of the Chinese not being as sincere as needed about defense than the JF-17 and J-10C."

"PAF tried integrating "a local payload" (possibly Ra'ad, maybe H2/H4, or even IREK) and the JF-17 flight control system went into a "safe mode" because it didn't recognize what had been mounted. This had some pretty disastrous consequences. So anytime we want to integrate a new system onto the JF-17, we have to collaborate with China to do so."
on top of that, i had a first hand discussion with the manager of the Avionics Production Factory at Dubai Airshow where they were desperate to find an alternative supplier to Chinese parts due to their exploitative and extortionate business practices.
I wonder why the PAF also did not commit or join hands with China in the NGFA program, instead going to Turkey who is not as experienced, who is also a wayyy bigger gamble to put money on vs China and on top of that, is offering a product with ITAR controlled engines, when China, the all weather, bhai bhai super trustworthy and reliable ally has two designs, J-31 and J-35 which they want to push to the PAF, both designs which have way more funding, support and are way further ahead, why does the PAF not select the more risk free, trustworthy and reliable partner?
Hint, it has something to do with them being unreliable and untrustworthy lol


Sounds like a trustworthy ally to me. Very loan shark esque behaviour almost, and we all know, loan sharks are very trustworthy people.


So what, we share the same neighborhood with India and Afghanistan too, even ethnic groups, common history too, whats your point.

KKH was a means of once again, protecting Chinese interest's. Blockade of malacca=re route Chinese goods.

Why do you think this is a gesture of goodwill i struggle to understand.


So what. Literally, so what, Israel and the gulf also share a common enemy, it is only now that relations warm, even then, those interactions are very limited. I dont understand why Indias presence should mean Pakistan needs to be rinsed of every last penny by China?

"As a student of history, even I seems to be forgetting how numerous times only one nation stood by Pakistan when all others were at other side in intl diplomacy, intl forums, UN security council.
Recently, some mistrust might have developed and that's because Pakistani establishment moving heaven and earth to please the americans. Any chinese cold shoulder from now on is totally justified."

Really... seriously? Just a google search would get rid of your jazbaat

"
Its never been "ALWAYS" the same story. Number of times we had money and we even paid money, but instead we were given expired wheat instead of the F-16s. I wonder how come we forget history or forget parts of history just to make a point.
You guys are well aware, that we were being bullied by the US. Those times there was no alternative available (As China's tech was far behind at 2nd gen fighters), so US knew we could not go anywhere else. You guys know that we received AMRAAMs after 30 years of F-16. Our F-16s were toothless in entire 90's and 2000s without BVR capability. US only allowed to sell us AMRAAMS when entire NATO supplychain was passing through Pak and another important point that came in discussions of US policy makers during those times was that Pakistan already receiving BVR capability from China (SD-10). We were at the mercy of Indian BVR capability the whole time and we begged the US and never got it when we needed the most. How can anyone forget those 2 decades ??"

This is utter silliness, this embargo was as a result of nuclear tests, something we were wholly aware of, it was going to happen, it would happen today, it would happen tomorrow, it would happen yesterday. Nuclear weapons have always been a red line and will lead to sanctions and embargos, alongside that, in total fairness, the US tried to build up a significant strike capability with a massive package of A-7's alongside F-16s and i think F5's/20's? for the PAF in the hopes they would not go nuclear. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. Consequences came with the nuclear tests, sanctions were enacted by most of the worlds powers and support for our programs was cut, this was the reality. Im not sure why people seem to think this is exclusive to the west either, Russia does this, China does too, step out of line, say hello to sanctions and also no more support. Why is this a difficult concept to grasp?
Literally, in the modern times, the last F-16 buy was stopped due to a lack of funds, the AH1Z's were stopped as a result of lack of Funds. The US literally approved naval weapons for the PN, RIM-116, ships, collaboration between US firms and PN, GT's for PN ships etc.


This is also funny, "China shipped F-7PG's in no time"
you mean the F-7PG's that were signed for in a deal over a year prior to the standoff lol? It was a contractual delivery of weapons, fair enough that may have expedited it, though i doubt this as a batch of 10 f-7PG per year seems standard in terms of delivery timelines anyway, but lol, China had contractual obligations to meet, ones that were set in stone over a year before the standoff.

"1- J-10Cs are not coming free, eventually we are going to pay for it. We bought a new platform. PAF was flying F-16s for 4 decades, might have loved just 10 initial order of F-16 block 70 or even 52 but geopolitics 101 that PAF is aware that US would not have approved the sales. see point 2 why."
Chinese loans,
F-16V deliveries are backlogged until 2028+. Bulgaria will receive theirs in 2027.

"

The US approved both AH1Z and F-16s previously, under the condition we pay for them.
The US approved naval weapons for the PN
The US government is not the same as it was before, geopolitics changes, the PAF obviously has confidence in its relations with the US considering they're backing a project which has the GEF404 at its heart.



one time. nuclear sanctions.

IIRC China was expected to help Pakistan in the 1971 war, but that help never came. Ironically, the US at the time under Nixon, sent the Task Force 74 involving the US Navy's Seventh Fleet to intimidate the Indian navy during the 1971 war.

Has China helped North Korea in its war? Yes. They even offered to help again if Trump invaded. The Chinese share ethnic, cultural, and political similarities with North Koreans that they will never share with Pakistanis. That is why China will NEVER fire a single bullet to defend Pakistan.

When it comes down to it, China has disappointed Pakistan in its times of need. The relationship is not of equal partners nor reciprocal. If China trades heavily with India who occupies Kashmir, can Pakistan trade with Taiwan? Obviously not, so where is the equality in this relationship?

The relationship is one-way with China and will always be one-way with anyone else. It's because Pakistanis do not believe in themselves and thus, never take the steps necessary to become independent. They will forever be stuck looking for "allies" or messiahs.

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,,.

@Defense_Talks

The J-10CE is set to demonstrate its capabilities alongside the Turkish and Saudi Air Forces at #IndusShield2023.

 

[Edevelop]

lol chinese equip also comes with conditions. Let me know when you see a J-10 flying alongside NATO planes. Infact, Chinese equip is literally downgraded for export...

Why do we want to fly J-10 alongside NATO countries? We are neither in NATO nor share any geopolitical interests. Maybe the Indians can because they are happy to use Russian planes alongside Rafales and others all for the purposes of containing China. You will not see us flying alongside NATO countries but in fact see our pilots fly alongside NATO built planes like the F-15s, Eurofighters, Rafale, and F-16s from countries like Saudi Arabia , UAE, Qatar, and Turkiye who btw share a strategic relationship due to OIC or whatever.

And what conditions are these? Do you realize Pakistan is the only country outside China that operates a wide variety of top notch Chinese weapons? Many are even tested in Pakistan before they are sent back to China for further improvements i.e. Z-10. That just shows trust. Heck I would even say that rumours of Pakistan inducting J-10 was as old as 2004 (all the way back to Musharraf days) and I have no doubt that over the years without valuable Pakistani input the J-10C would not have matured to were it is now

China much better ally because youre being given corrupt deals to push the country into more debt, got it. Chinese power projects in PK cost 3-4x more than comparable ones in India. Chinese projects use CHINESE manpower, FLOWN in from CHINA, paid for by PAKISTANI taxpayers. Seems like a great deal really.

Pakistan's tax collection is one of the worst in the world. It's at 9%.... I believe sorting that problem resolves a whole lot of other issues including funding development projects like a normal country. Its not the Chinese fault...

I disagree with you. China has helped Pakistan more than USA has.

One thing is for sure, the Chinese never pushed Pakistan into any wars. The U.S did, whether it was against the Soviet Union or blackmailing us for decades to support them to run the Afghan war and the same thing is happening now in Ukraine.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

China and Pakistan aren't allies. That has much to do with us as it does the Chinese.

Our military and political leaders have traditionally aligned themselves with the US and UK, respectively, and would never make a move without tacit US/UK approval. I'd argue that even our relationship China likely started due to Western direction, and on that basis, it doesn't surprise me that we couldn't build a deeper relationship w/China when that Western direction waned.

OTOH, the Chinese don't know how to think big from a geo-political standpoint. They structured CPEC to crudely frontload power and infrastructure at Pakistan's expense on the possibility that Pakistan would leverage it to rapidly industrialize; however, immediate Chinese interests came first, and that pursuit hurt Pakistan and pushed it even deeper into the embrace of the US (e.g., securing IMF as well as bilateral loans to plug BoP gaps).

So, if China was aiming to bring Pakistan into its orbit via CPEC, then it failed and distanced Pakistan further. Now, if the US was in China's position, it'd literally send as much FDI and favourable trade access to Pakistan to build the latter's economy and stature so that it emerges as a reliable ally (e.g., like it's doing with India).

Just because we have issues with China doesn't mean our issues with the US are gone -- we have problems with both, but for different reasons. This is the cost of not building a proactive foreign policy that clearly defines our actual national interests, and then defends them.

And no, I'm not talking about BS uncle-defined national interests at NDU that conveniently ignore Kashmir, Afghanistan, the Gulf, the Horn of Africa and literally anything else that impacts us (but leaving us bereft of any policy solutions aside from crying to the UNHCR). I'm talking about Pakistan defining an umbrella of influence that extends into Afghanistan and Central Asia, Somalia, the Arab Gulf, and Kashmir, and then viciously and relentlessly pursuing those interests in an organized way.

How? We create a real economic strategy that (1) prioritizes R&D for critical industries (e.g., gas turbines, metallurgy, pharma, etc), (2) inserts Pakistan as a producer of top-traded goods, (3) carves market access needing said goods, but at lower costs and thinner strings vs. the West, and (4) using our huge population to force favourable FDI arrangements whereby the auto-producers, consumer good producers, etc, manufacture in Pakistan with minimal imports.

In parallel, we build our military to pursue (1) a doctrine of globally-acknowledged deterrence (i.e., everyone should be afraid of our nuclear and conventional reach) and (2) industrially-fed procurement whereby we design and build what we need. The R&D in critical industries will naturally feed into it while the output from (2) and (3) will help keep our state coffers full to fund said programs.

This is what Pakistan should be, i.e,, a competitor to India, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, our leaders have continuously attached themselves as lotay to other powers, and we're suffering from it. I don't believe in closing our borders and hiding; rather, we should get out there with a stick and slap everyone around us in line so that we, they, and everyone can live in peace and prosperity. If Chinese and European fishers are turfing out Somali fishers, and in turn, creating Somali piracy, then we send our navy to get those Sino-EU fishers out of the region, dismantle Somali pirates, and get our investors to set up shop in both Baluchistan and Somalia.

I agree to many of your points and that how our approach should be and all. That's going certainly to geopolitics area. So I will make a new thread in some days whenever got the time as otherwise this thread will get majorly off-topic. But just to summarize, I know nobody is your 'brother' in geopolitics, in the end its business & politics. Sometimes common objectives makes us allies. The way we see, United States and india have become allies & partners for foreseeable future. India is not just United State's hired gun but their economic, strategic goals are well defined. I see the US will not chose or give any favor to Pakistan in anyway at expense of India. Indian policy makers are sharp, they want the best out of US -indo relations and they will ensure that Pakistan is kept at distance.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?"

Neither will happen.

Bro, I could be wrong but I can see J-10Cs participating in intl exercises in few years. They are just too new and too few atm. For F-16s, its clear restriction that those cannot be used at such and such places

So what, we share the same neighborhood with India and Afghanistan too, even ethnic groups, common history too, whats your point.

That's a whole deal. We are mainly comparing US / China. Two great powers game. One is neighbor other is all the way around. Even if are able to maintain relations with the US. We must try and keep better relations with China. You can notice how bluntly the middleeast countries are now replying to the West & US interviewers whenever they ask hard questions on their closing relations with China.

you mean the F-7PG's that were signed for in a deal over a year prior to the standoff lol? It was a contractual delivery of weapons, fair enough that may have expedited it

Yes they greatly had expedited that one when needed most. Let me re-phrase the question, hypothetical scenario, if tomorrow Pakistan goes into war with india do you see more Amraams, F-16s, or even parts of it coming to Pak from the US OR do you see more J-10Cs / or its critical parts, weaponary / PL-15s coming our way ? I definitely see the later on.

The US approved both AH1Z and F-16s previously, under the condition we pay for them.
The US approved naval weapons for the PN
The US government is not the same as it was before, geopolitics changes, the PAF obviously has confidence in its relations with the US considering they're backing a project which has the GEF404 at its heart.

Bro, ok nuclear sanctions were in the 90's and early 2000s as of pressler amendment. But whats the hold off after that. Why were the AMRAAMs not released until 2010. and why americans denied Turkey to sell its choppers using american engines. Same helis went to other countries without any issues. Nuclear sanctions were long gone.
That's a good news about PN weapons but perhaps I am not much aware of PN weapons that are aquired from US recently ? RIM116 etc we still have to see if they have approved it or not.

Not the same as the above, but it was interesting to note the chairman of ARDIC directly calling out “friendly countries” for not providing or outright banning our access to software, hardware, designs and models etc. He even repeated it twice, you can tell he’s frustrated about it

Alright, agreed. You are right they may want to make money on every update and such. Still, the collaborations with China were / are still at much higher level than ever those were with the US. I don't see we are allowed to do 'engineering' / or have access on american gear basically we never did such a venture. Why we didn't go to US is because either there is trust deficit OR United states was simply not interested.

I don't call 'bhai bhai' and don't believe in such slogans. I only see objectively, the kind of collaborations and alliance I am seeing between the US and india makes little space for Pakistan unless Pakistan completely re-write its policy towards india.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

IIRC China was expected to help Pakistan in the 1971 war, but that help never came. Ironically, the US at the time under Nixon, sent the Task Force 74 involving the US Navy's Seventh Fleet to intimidate the Indian navy during the 1971 war.

That's not entirely correct. You are well aware, in 1971 Pakistan was so called ally of US or had US backing. India was a close Soviet ally. Why on earth US should not have helped Pakistan? China did helped Pakistan, Karakoram highway was not existed back than but several air trips were made and ammo or whatever chinese could helped was delivered.

Has China helped North Korea in its war? Yes. They even offered to help again if Trump invaded. The Chinese share ethnic, cultural, and political similarities with North Koreans that they will never share with Pakistanis. That is why China will NEVER fire a single bullet to defend Pakistan.

No country will ever jump into another's war. We must not over expect.

The relationship is one-way with China and will always be one-way with anyone else. It's because Pakistanis do not believe in themselves and thus, never take the steps necessary to become independent. They will forever be stuck looking for "allies" or messiahs.

That's absolutely true. I agree with you here.

 

[Corax]

im going to try and answer in the shortest manner possible because i cant particularly be bothered to repeat myself over and over.

"You tell me honestly, Which one has more probability to happen?
J-10Cs in next few years flying in any international exercise
OR
F-16s flying in China or even in Pakistan at Shaheen exercises?"

Neither will happen.



"Not the same as the above, but it was interesting to note the chairman of ARDIC directly calling out “friendly countries” for not providing or outright banning our access to software, hardware, designs and models etc. He even repeated it twice, you can tell he’s frustrated about it. I noticed this same frustration from the officers and engineers there when I went. And he mentions it directly on camera too, I know it’s not much, but I’m glad to see even this amount of a backbone, that they’re not just signing “Pak-Chin Dosti Zindabad” and actually saying things as they are. The local production of VT4 is a much bigger example of the Chinese not being as sincere as needed about defense than the JF-17 and J-10C."

"PAF tried integrating "a local payload" (possibly Ra'ad, maybe H2/H4, or even IREK) and the JF-17 flight control system went into a "safe mode" because it didn't recognize what had been mounted. This had some pretty disastrous consequences. So anytime we want to integrate a new system onto the JF-17, we have to collaborate with China to do so."
on top of that, i had a first hand discussion with the manager of the Avionics Production Factory at Dubai Airshow where they were desperate to find an alternative supplier to Chinese parts due to their exploitative and extortionate business practices.
I wonder why the PAF also did not commit or join hands with China in the NGFA program, instead going to Turkey who is not as experienced, who is also a wayyy bigger gamble to put money on vs China and on top of that, is offering a product with ITAR controlled engines, when China, the all weather, bhai bhai super trustworthy and reliable ally has two designs, J-31 and J-35 which they want to push to the PAF, both designs which have way more funding, support and are way further ahead, why does the PAF not select the more risk free, trustworthy and reliable partner?
Hint, it has something to do with them being unreliable and untrustworthy lol


Sounds like a trustworthy ally to me. Very loan shark esque behaviour almost, and we all know, loan sharks are very trustworthy people.


So what, we share the same neighborhood with India and Afghanistan too, even ethnic groups, common history too, whats your point.

KKH was a means of once again, protecting Chinese interest's. Blockade of malacca=re route Chinese goods.

Why do you think this is a gesture of goodwill i struggle to understand.


So what. Literally, so what, Israel and the gulf also share a common enemy, it is only now that relations warm, even then, those interactions are very limited. I dont understand why Indias presence should mean Pakistan needs to be rinsed of every last penny by China?

"As a student of history, even I seems to be forgetting how numerous times only one nation stood by Pakistan when all others were at other side in intl diplomacy, intl forums, UN security council.
Recently, some mistrust might have developed and that's because Pakistani establishment moving heaven and earth to please the americans. Any chinese cold shoulder from now on is totally justified."

Really... seriously? Just a google search would get rid of your jazbaat

"
Its never been "ALWAYS" the same story. Number of times we had money and we even paid money, but instead we were given expired wheat instead of the F-16s. I wonder how come we forget history or forget parts of history just to make a point.
You guys are well aware, that we were being bullied by the US. Those times there was no alternative available (As China's tech was far behind at 2nd gen fighters), so US knew we could not go anywhere else. You guys know that we received AMRAAMs after 30 years of F-16. Our F-16s were toothless in entire 90's and 2000s without BVR capability. US only allowed to sell us AMRAAMS when entire NATO supplychain was passing through Pak and another important point that came in discussions of US policy makers during those times was that Pakistan already receiving BVR capability from China (SD-10). We were at the mercy of Indian BVR capability the whole time and we begged the US and never got it when we needed the most. How can anyone forget those 2 decades ??"

This is utter silliness, this embargo was as a result of nuclear tests, something we were wholly aware of, it was going to happen, it would happen today, it would happen tomorrow, it would happen yesterday. Nuclear weapons have always been a red line and will lead to sanctions and embargos, alongside that, in total fairness, the US tried to build up a significant strike capability with a massive package of A-7's alongside F-16s and i think F5's/20's? for the PAF in the hopes they would not go nuclear. You cannot have your cake and also eat it. Consequences came with the nuclear tests, sanctions were enacted by most of the worlds powers and support for our programs was cut, this was the reality. Im not sure why people seem to think this is exclusive to the west either, Russia does this, China does too, step out of line, say hello to sanctions and also no more support. Why is this a difficult concept to grasp?
Literally, in the modern times, the last F-16 buy was stopped due to a lack of funds, the AH1Z's were stopped as a result of lack of Funds. The US literally approved naval weapons for the PN, RIM-116, ships, collaboration between US firms and PN, GT's for PN ships etc.


This is also funny, "China shipped F-7PG's in no time"
you mean the F-7PG's that were signed for in a deal over a year prior to the standoff lol? It was a contractual delivery of weapons, fair enough that may have expedited it, though i doubt this as a batch of 10 f-7PG per year seems standard in terms of delivery timelines anyway, but lol, China had contractual obligations to meet, ones that were set in stone over a year before the standoff.

"1- J-10Cs are not coming free, eventually we are going to pay for it. We bought a new platform. PAF was flying F-16s for 4 decades, might have loved just 10 initial order of F-16 block 70 or even 52 but geopolitics 101 that PAF is aware that US would not have approved the sales. see point 2 why."
Chinese loans,
F-16V deliveries are backlogged until 2028+. Bulgaria will receive theirs in 2027.

"

The US approved both AH1Z and F-16s previously, under the condition we pay for them.
The US approved naval weapons for the PN
The US government is not the same as it was before, geopolitics changes, the PAF obviously has confidence in its relations with the US considering they're backing a project which has the GEF404 at its heart.



one time. nuclear sanctions.

I don't disagree with the ideas you've raised, but China has never imposed crippling sanctions on Pakistan, it's as simple as that.

For the Pak military, securing uninterrupted supply lines is of critical importance. In addition, there has been significant ToT from China, case in point, the JF-17 would not have been possible. You can argue about the merits of the JF-17, but what other country or source of military technology would have allowed the PAF to establish some sort of home-grown technology base?

After all, beggars can't be choosers.

 

[TheSolution]

The relationship is one-way with China and will always be one-way with anyone else. It's because Pakistanis do not believe in themselves and thus, never take the steps necessary to become independent. They will forever be stuck looking for "allies" or messiahs.

100% facts.

They still have a slavery mentality till this day, looking for saviours everywhere else but zero confidence in themselves or the ability to be leaders for their own interests.

This is a serious fundamental issue.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

For the Pak military, securing uninterrupted supply lines is of critical importance

That's a golden line. That's what we were missing with the US even when we were closest of the allies for most part. For weapons, Pak simply cannot trust a defence partner which released critical air to air missiles after years of bargain and years of pressure of "do more" OR the "defence" partner which denied its engines to be sold to Pak (for turkish attack helis) but itself sold the most modern Apache helicopters to Pakistan's worst enemy. There is simply no comparison.