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PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

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I asked CHATGPT about J-10C:

View attachment 907695

Indian friends would blame CHATGPT is biased

- Ask ChatGpt if the Tejas is better than the F22 Raptor ..... lol..

- Ask it why did the MKI Raptor of East get shot down by "an inferior" F16.

- Ask it why Indians like to live in a world of self dellusional fantasty of lies, deception and make believe ?

- Ask it how many wars the Indian-keyboard warriors have won ?

( i really should create my own account at this rate !!!!!!!! )....
 
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I have to admit the guts and brains of the PAF! Even during the worst year possible for Pak they are accumulating their resources and multiplying their strength with a singularity of purpose and mind.....

The way the PAF, in comparison and contrast to the IAF, leveraging their sources - be it China, Turkey, USA, or anybody else - is amazing! They have got J-10Cs, are harnessing JF-17Cs, are getting hold on all of the Turkish aviation and EW related staffs (as if they're involved with them as partners) etc. as if there's no tomorrow....
 
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all the E-3 versions. They are just not very good. The E-2Ds can track things much further out.

E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian), USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.

There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.

A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.

Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise.



The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).

The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.

The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:

"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." - LOCKHEED MARTIN

Generic statement.

"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS." - Lockheed Martin

More specific here.

I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:

- Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
- Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
- Interleaved
- Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
- Maritime
- Passive

Related information in here.

RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.

Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:

“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” - Nick Grudziecki

Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:

O7Ywj1G.jpg



Compare the above with original cockpit in here.

E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.

E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.

E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.

I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.

I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.

don't think about things from 1 to 1 point of view but rather from a system point of view. J-10Cs would not be countering F-35s by themselves but also with all the other sensors in service with PLA.

PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.

All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.


KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?

Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.

I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.

Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.

no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.

At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.

System point of view cut both ways, dear.

You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?

Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters

Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.

- - -


B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:

QGbs8.png


This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.

- Costs are reduced.
- Complexity is reduced.
- Probability of suffering losses is reduced.

But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.


*Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.


**Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.

- - -

F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.

F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.

laXIoNo.png


Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and these cruise missiles are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.

But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.

Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.

For perspective:

A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.


To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.

RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.



You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.

USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.

PL-15 is probably the most capable AMRAAM when it comes to locking onto LO/VLO platform due to having AESA seeker.

All these are just marketing items that don't mean much in real life. I can tell you that US military determines J-20 to have comparable stealth from frontal aspect as early F-35s (case in point, they use early F-35s in J-20 Aggressor roles). J-10C and J-16 have both done a lot of training against J-20s simulating F-35s and have their share of successes.


KJ-500 is much better than E-3. You do realize one is a 2nd generation AESA radar and the other is a mechanically steered radar, right?

Why do you think KJ-500 will struggle to detect F-35s? They can get cued up by other sensors. Narrow beaming L-band radar against something like F-35 is not going to work out too great for F-35s. People are way overstating how hard it is to detect F-35s. This is not the early 2000s anymore. AESA radar, UHF/VHF long range search radars, IRST, sensor fusion, modern machine processing have all gotten a lot better.

PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.

F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.

F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.

How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?

- - -

Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S-band.

KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.

I don't need to read quora posts. Chinese sources say they can easily track all 3 variants of F-35s. My DoD contact says that persistent tracking of F-35s can be established all the way to 1st island chain.

Seems like you are working too hard to justify prior belief.

no, I think you are just unaware of where China is at right now. The problem when it comes to PLA watching is that they advance too fast. People are often years behind in their assessment. Unless you have classified info or are completely in tune with Chinese sources, it's really just hard for you to appreciate these things.

At this point, I really don't think too highly of F-16s. F-18s are clearly the best 4th gen aircraft us military has. USAF are just keeping F-16s around to keep the numbers high. I actually don't think that highly of J-10Cs either. If PLAAF buys more J-10C after this year, I would be disappointed. They are fine for defending air space against Russians and Indians, but just not suitable for a westpac conflict.

Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.

Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.

I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.

I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.






But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:


The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:


US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.

But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances. This is bad judgement. One should not grow complacent.


F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:

The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so.


Anyways, nice talking to you.
 
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E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian, USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.

There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.

A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.

Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise.



The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).

The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.

The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:

"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." - LOCKHEED MARTIN

Generic statement.

"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS." - Lockheed Martin

More specific here.

I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:

- Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
- Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
- Interleaved
- Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
- Maritime
- Passive

Related information in here.

RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.

Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:

“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” - Nick Grudziecki

Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:

O7Ywj1G.jpg



Compare the above with original cockpit in here.

E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.

E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.

E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.

I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.

I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.



System point of view cut both ways, dear.

You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?

Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters

Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.

- - -


B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:

QGbs8.png


This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.

- Costs are reduced.
- Complexity is reduced.
- Probability of suffering losses is reduced.

But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.


*Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.


**Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.

- - -

F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.

F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.

laXIoNo.png


Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.

But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.

Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.

For perspective:

A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.


To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.

RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.



You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.

USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.



PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.

F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.

F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.

How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?

- - -

Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S band.

KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.



Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.

Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.

I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.

I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.






But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:


The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:


US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.

But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances.


F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:

The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so.


Anyways, nice talking to you.
Great post with so much information for a layperson like myself to go through and be better informed.
 
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E-3 is a time-tested and battle-proven platform. The latest E3G variant (Block 40/45 standard) is equipped with technologies that are relevant for modern warfare needs. E3G was able to monitor, process, and facilitate activities in Syrian airspace where SyADF (Syrian), VKS (Russian), USAF (American), and USN (American) were active for relevant missions and neighboring countries such as Israel and Turkey would get involved intermittently with air arms for distinct pursuits, to avert accidents and make sure that American mission on the ground will succeed. E3G was also involved in incidents in which NATO aircraft engaged and shot down VKS aircraft in the region.

There is so much to a radar system then applying AESA TRMs on it and call it a day.

A radar system can scan a search volume either by mechanically rotating the antenna or by using a phased-array antenna and performing electronic scanning. Imperfectly shaped antenna beams and the process of sweeping the beam across a search volume introduce additional losses to the system. Electronically steered phased arrays can impact the SNR due to beam broadening and a reduction in the effective aperture area of individual elements when steering off the radar boresight.

Prior to detection, the received radar echoes must pass through the radar signal-processing chain. The purpose of different components in the signal-processing chain is to guarantee the required probabilities of detection and false alarm, reject unwanted echoes from clutter, and account for non-Gaussian noise.



The trick is in a well-tested combination of antenna design, waveform technique, peak transmit power, sophisticated algorithms, and information processing technologies, to effectively scan a search volume and improve line-of-sight irrespective of the approach used (purple highlights).

The AN/APY-2 radar system is OFFICIALLY stated to use High PRF pulse doppler waveform in S-band to search for and distinguish airborne targets from clutter returns. But it was found to contain ultra low sidelobe antennas at a closer look. Whoops.

The AN/APY-2 radar received RSIP treatment:

"In order to counter today's increasing threat sophistication, the AWACS radar system has been significantly upgraded under the radar system improvement program (RISP). The RISP modifications enhance radar performance characteristics, add new capabilities, improve the user interface, and lower the life-cycle cost of the AWACS radar, while improving reliability." - LOCKHEED MARTIN

Generic statement.

"RSIP introduces advanced Pulse Doppler waveforms, pulse compression, and new processing algorithms implemented by hardware and software improvements that allow the system to detect and track targets at up to twice the range of original AWACS." - Lockheed Martin

More specific here.

I was able to read between the lines with homework - RSIP was aimed to transform AN/APY-2 into a multi-mode PESA radar system. HYBRID architecture was created since AN/APY-2 RSIP can scan the environment in several ways using Pulse Doppler, Non Pulse Doppler, and Combined approaches:

- Pulse Doppler Nonelevation Scan (PDNES)
- Beyond-the-Horizon (BTH)
- Interleaved
- Pulse Doppler Elevation Scan (PDES)
- Maritime
- Passive

Related information in here.

RSIP provides the capability to detect up to 100 airborne targets having a small RCS in the face of Electronic Countermeasures employed by opposing forces. Target detection range was significantly increased as well. New computer systems were installed to process information by AN/APY-2 RSIP. One of these is the Surveillance Radar Computer (SRC) capable of performing over 24 billion operations per second.

Another addition is implementation of the AN/UPX-40 system:

“The UPX-40 dramatically improves the detection of weak signals or maneuvering targets at maximum range and improves detection of targets at all ranges.” - Nick Grudziecki

Yet another addition is implementation of DRAGON system:

O7Ywj1G.jpg



Compare the above with original cockpit in here.

E-3G is a transformed platform by extension.

E-3G is unlikely to struggle with detecting and tracking J-10C from a respectable distance but it might struggle to detect and track J-20 from a respectable distance. Enter E-2D.

E-2D is equipped with superior AN/APY-9 radar system, and solves the problem of detecting and tracking all types of Chinese aerial assets from a respectable distance for USAF and USN. J-20 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across frequency bands ranging from S to Ku by virtue of its shaping and Chinese RAM application but less effective in either extremes and beyond; canards and all-moving vertical stabilizers are a significant source of specular reflection across a large area.

I was of the view that AN/APY-2 is obsolete until I learned about RSIP update. This system might not hold a candle to AN/APY-9 but it is up to the task for modern warfare needs as it proved itself in Syrian conflict situation where several countries were active for different reasons.

I am somewhat skeptical about your contact. He might be withholding information from you.



System point of view cut both ways, dear.

You need to be more specific about the battle scenario that you have in your mind. WHERE do you expect a battle with US to take place? What is the force composition of China in the relevant region? What is the objective of US in the relevant region?

Eastern Theater Command -- Taiwan, East China Sea
Southern Theater Command -- South China Sea; Southeast Asia border security; territorial disputes
Western Theater Command -- India, Central Asia, "counter-terrorism" in Xinjiang and Tibet
Northern Theater Command -- Korean Peninsula, Russia border security
Central Theater Command -- Capital defense; surge support to other theaters

Many Chinese do not understand how US might fight a war with a near-peer adversary and on what grounds. F-35 has limited capacity to ingress into Chinese mainland on its own. USAF will have to deploy air refueling tankers to support F-35 in this capacity. But US doesn't need to adopt this approach to take on Chinese defenses in the relevant region.

- - -


B-2A might be the aircraft of choice to ingress into Chinese mainland to take on Chinese defenses and infrastructure:

QGbs8.png


This comparison shows that just two B-2A are sufficient to produce "battlefield effects" that would take multiple aircraft to replicate otherwise. And there is no need to use air refueling tankers for B-2A.

- Costs are reduced.
- Complexity is reduced.
- Probability of suffering losses is reduced.

But US will not stress a single platform for a military operation inside China - Tomahawk Block 4 cruise missiles might be unleashed from ships* and submarines** to complement operations of B-2A to do the needful.


*Arleigh Burke class destroyers and Ticonderoga class cruisers are equipped with an assortment of well-developed munitions that can be used to intercept cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, UAVs, and aircraft. These ships can work together to create a common picture of the threat environment and will not be easy to defeat. China is expected to use DF-21D and DF-26 ASBM to engage USN ships in the Pacific. USN has conducted a large number of live-fire tests to develop the capability to intercept ASBMs. But USN will attempt to take out launchers of DF-21D and DF-26 as well.


**Ohio-class submarine(s) do not need to surface for a long period of time courtesy of the onboard power plant technology and can get close to a country without warning to do their bidding.

- - -

F-35 might be used to provide ISR to USN and engage PLAAF if it comes after USN in the Pacific.

F-35 is designed to deflect and absorb radar waves across a number of frequency bands ranging from L to V by virtue of its shaping and RAM application. These measures allow F-35 to reduce line-of-sight of various radar systems for it to maneuver through the threat environment.

laXIoNo.png


Those radar systems which can detect F-35 such as Chinese YLC-8E might not be able to track it in real time for long -- F-35 is equipped with state-of-the-art broadband EW capabilities for good reason. Combat tactics is another factor -- F-35 offers unprecedented situational awareness to the pilot who in turn will not wait for the kill chain to establish and work against him but engage and destroy valuable targets at earliest opportunity. If this is not possible then F-35 can be used to illuminate YLC-8E among other radar systems on the surface for the USN to take out with a barrage of Tomahawks. The benefits of CEC are boundless. Radar systems on the surface are vulnerable to decapitating strikes but airborne platforms like E-2D can survive with air escort. You might have faith in A2/AD systems like HQ-9 but virtually nothing could stop a volley of Tomahawks from approaching desired targets in conflicts around the world and are kept up to date. Tomahawks have onboard EW capabilities, can be programmed to bypass threat zones, can be instructed to change course, and adopt terrain-hugging approach to reach desired targets. The window of opportunity to detect and intercept these cruise missiles is very small and a volley is virtually impossible to stop.

But PLAAF is in the air? Enter squadrons.

Imagine dozens of F-35 operating in a threat environment taking cues from each other as well as from other assets including E-2D and E3G. Imagine the effectiveness of this force.

For perspective:

A Blue Force composed of 8 jet fighters (F-35B = 4; Others = 4), was able to achieve a kill ratio of (20 - 1) against a RED Force composed of 20 jet fighters in a RED FLAG event scheduled in 2017. These F-35B were older Block 2B standard and pilots were coming to terms with its capabilities.


To be fair, J-10C, J-16, and J-20 are better than these. But F-35 is much more capable at Block 3F standard in comparison to Block 2B standard and E-2D can add a whole new dimension to its operations in a threat environment.

RED FLAG is also being revisited in its representation of threat environment(s) with new entrants and perceived complexities as pointed out in here, here, and here, and J-20 is being simulated as a part of the training regime for the Blue Force in the present.



You can see how advanced Aggressor Squadrons have become.

USAF and USN are training to fight PLAAF.



PL-15 is impressive but a pilot needs to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on the target to use it which will be very difficult to achieve in the BVR regime against an F-35 in view of the aforementioned.

F-35 will be able to obtain "weapons-grade lock" on every PLAAF jet fighter from a respectable distance with support of E-2D and to lesser extent E3G on the other hand in view of the aforementioned. AIM-120D is very capable in the BVR regime.

F-35 is very capable in the WVR regime as well due to its formidable EW capabilities and sensor fusion, and the pilot has the option to use both AIM-9X and AIM-120D to engage opposing aircraft in the WVR regime. AIM-120 class can deliver results in the WVR regime as well.

How many jet fighters PLAAF is willing to loose to engage and defeat each F-35 operating in a system of airborne assets? (20 - 1)? (15 - 1)? (10 - 1)? (5 - 1)? Get my drift?

- - -

Marketing items? Japanese data is credible. The AWACS in question might be Japanese E3 variant. RCS figure(s) of the jet fighters are corroborated with official revelations and relevant patents and valid for S-band.

KJ-500 is equipped with a radar system having AESA TRMs which is great but are you privy to its algorithms, waveform technique, and peak transmit power? What I know is that it can detect up to 100 airborne targets and operates in the L-band. The radar system might be good enough to detect cruise missiles and possibly J-20 but... F-35 is VLO across bands ranging from L to V with formidable EW capabilities (see above). This is why I am of the view that KJ-500 itself will be struggling to detect and track F-35 in real time.



Speaking of sources, Venezuela claimed to have detected and discouraged an F-22A operating nearby courtesy of the Chinese JY-27A radar system - a story that was used to create unrealistic hype of this radar system in here (hundreds fooled) but a realistic take on this radar system is in here. Americans didn't even bother to address this claim. You might have heard of Luneburg lens. You should request your contact to take you to RED FLAG - let me know your findings.

Quora posts might be trash on average but well-informed people are also active on the platform and provide valuable information from time-to-time. Valuable knowledge can be found anywhere including on PDF.

I understand that belief is not convincing, and prefer to work with Facts & Figures or with realistic approximations in case of lack of data. I had a debate with a Russian member about 5th generation fighters and I attempted to convince him with meaningful information that F-22A is much more stealthy than Su-57 but he was dismissive. Well-informed individuals and independent analysis proved me right. Maybe common sense comes to a person naturally - it is not common though.

I am mindful of Chinese advances and appreciate them in person. But I have some observations. China has benefited tremendously from Foreign investments in general, and from purchasing European technologies to develop Chinese tech base in particular, and with this dynamic comes the capacity to compete with US on many counts. Both UK and Germany are significant contributors to Chinese tech base on many counts. Some pointers for reference below.






But US is spooked and have resorted to export controls:


The export controls might tighten in time and China will be compelled to develop domestic solutions as noted in following link:


US is a bonafide tech powerhouse on the other hand. US will also attempt to cut off China from Western tech flows. China needs to reflect on this issue and adopt conciliatory tone with Western countries. China also needs to focus on developing on homegrown solutions.

But Chinese are becoming over-confident and looking down on American technologies and underestimating American technological advances. This is bad judgement. One should not grow complacent.


F-16 Block 70/72 is a significant leap from the older Block 50/52 on all counts:

The most advanced version of the F-16, the Block 70/72 mounts the APG-83 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, a new electronic warfare suite called Viper Shield, a more powerful mission computer, an updated cockpit with larger color displays—including zoom and the ability to rearrange displayed information—an uprated engine, capability for most modern weapons, conformal overwing fuel tanks and an infrared search-and-track system and targeting pod capability, improved data links, precision GPS navigation, and an automatic ground collision avoidance system (GCAS), among other improvements. The Block 70/72 also has a structural service life of 12,000 hours, about 50 percent longer than previous F-16s, meaning the type could stay in service until 2060 or so.


Anyways, nice talking to you.
According to the statement of the general of the US Air Force, the E-3 is not enough to find the j-20 in time.
It's odd to me that, like the F-35, the J-20 hangs the same Luneburg lens while on the mission.
Is the j-20 still such a difficult target for the E-3 after hanging the Luneburg lens? If so, then the e-3's systems are clearly not very capable even after the upgrade.
 
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According to the statement of the general of the US Air Force, the E-3 is not enough to find the j-20 in time.
It's odd to me that, like the F-35, the J-20 hangs the same Luneburg lens while on the mission.
Is the j-20 still such a difficult target for the E-3 after hanging the Luneburg lens? If so, then the e-3's systems are clearly not very capable even after the upgrade.

Thanks for the pointer. I am aware of this link and used it in my post. He seems to be speaking in hypothetical terms.

E-3G will easily track J-20 equipped with Luneburg lens from far away:

"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."


But AN/APY-2 RSIP operates in the S-band frequency and J-20 will be difficult to detect and track in real time in this band from far away when operating without Luneburg lens in wartime situation. This makes sense when WE take a closer look at J-20 shaping coupled with Chinese advances in developing RAM application for it, and onboard EW capabilities.

J-20 is a formidable jet fighter in its latest form. It will be able to deliver results in neighboring threat environments. It posit a significant threat to some of the assets of USAF and USN as well. Credit where due.
 
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Thanks for the pointer. I am aware of this link and used it in my post. He seems to be speaking in hypothetical terms.

E-3G will easily track J-20 equipped with Luneburg lens from far away:

"RSIP allow detection of targets about 10 times smaller than non-RSIP AWACS radars, including cruise missiles. Range Resolution improve by 6 times, with a 70 - 100 % increase in Detection Range, and much better Range, Altitude and Azimuth accuracy. RSIP radars are able to see targets with a 0.5 m radar cross section at 300 n.mi. or more. The modification include a new Pulse-compressed waveform, two new adaptive signature processors, and better electronic countermeasures proofing."


But AN/APY-2 RSIP operates in the S-band frequency and J-20 will be difficult to detect and track in real time in this band from far away when operating without Luneburg lens in wartime situation. This makes sense when WE take a closer look at J-20 shaping coupled with Chinese advances in developing RAM application for it, and onboard EW capabilities.

J-20 is a formidable jet fighter in its latest form. It will be able to deliver results in neighboring threat environments. It posit a significant threat to some of the assets of USAF and USN as well. Credit where due.
Mr Legend very nice posts these days. I have returned to pdf after a while, I dont recall you were a technical poster. But nice never the less.
 
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We have seen pictures of the following J-10s in the air superiority two-tone gray scheme or the French styled Gray-Green camo so far. I am guessing all first 12 are in grey while the next 12 are in the Mirage scheme.
Will need more pictures to be certain but this makes sense to me so far. Have we seen any of the missing birds so far?

1672192877156.png
 
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