PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[SQ8]

I can remind one thing to you:base on the relevant source nearly all avionics except the radar on the early batch J-10A are purchased from france directly ，they give the fully BVR capacility to J-10A,do you know what it means? A HUD?sorry it's a France（ THALES ） HUD at that time.

You clearly aren’t understanding what I am inferring to - knowledge was transferred to China from a variety of sources that helped in the design of the J-10. That doesn’t mean they used the exact HUD or even the rivet size from the F-16 or Lavi.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Not too long to see them in our Skies along with F16s.

 

[maverick1977]

LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT
View attachment 806646

is ko har kissi say ishq ho jata hay, sub kuch parday may rakhoo... ... check karo is kay kamray may cruise missiles, jahazoon aur tankoo kee poster to nahi lagay huay, rofl

 

[SQ8]

Agreed with you.
No one wins in an arm race except the arm dealer.
But there are always countrys thought they could gain advantage and threat the others by doing so, and here comes the race.

That's very interesting information you shared. If what you said is accurate, there is no doubt that researchers in China could study design and textures of these in order to improve themselves'.
Of course Pakistans would got what they expected too, such as arm improvement, information about Sukhoi fighters etc. That is what called friends---helping each other,right?

A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs

 

[Goenitz]

ELEVEN HARDPOINTS AT THE MOMENT
View attachment 806666

11 hardpoints are correct. Though the J 10CE wing tip is not strong enough to hold any weapon, plus it is curved so cannot incorporate rail. The small bombs are on dual rack, so total 3 under wing. The fuelage hardpoints are correct

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Deino will 'kill' you.

Thanks for the reminder, deleted that image.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Can’t wait for the hush kit interview with J-10C pilot.

 

[tphuang]

This is my first time posting on these type of forums for a while, but the topic peaked my interest enough to listen to a bunch of Chinese podcast. So I will say the following.

As much as J-10 export have been discussed for a long time (starting with J-10A long long ago), it really was not very simple to do it until now. And the reason is J-10 have been equipped with AL-31 until the last couple of years. It's one thing to get Russians on board with exporting RD-93s for 150 JF-17s. It's quite another thing to get Russians on board for 25 to 40 J-10s. Now that they have a reliable domestic engine that can be produced in large numbers, they have the ability to both supply domestically and export. China and Russia have very tight relationships. You are not going to see J-11B or J-16 ever get exported to Pakistan. Even though it's of my opinion that J-16/J-16D are more powerful than J-10Cs, China will not piss off the Russians. The next aircraft China will like to export to PAF after this would be whatever comes of FC-31. But who knows how long that will take to get fully developed and mature.

Internet warriors make a common mistake of getting overly excited about possible future capabilities and not about what makes sense from delivery and price and training point of view. It's more important to get aircraft into your service quickly that can immediately improve your training and capabilities rather than continually waiting for an exporter to develop new technology that may take years to be completely certified and reliable. That's the difference between China and India. That's why China got the MKK quickly into its service while the Indians spent days glamorizing MKIs mythical capabilities that took years to get there. Keep in mind, even a "mature"/conservative design like MKK still took years to get certain capabilities that Russians had promised.

J-10C is a no brainer for PAF right now for some very obvious reasons. It has been in service with PLAAF for 6 years and should be mature/reliable by this point. It's been flying with WS-10B for a couple of years. They should've fixed most of the issues by this point. PLAAF has trained with it for that many years and have a good idea how to use it and can pass along that knowledge to PAF. PAF has also trained against it several times with all the joint exercises. In the event of a war, China can send J-10C replacement to PAF at a very short notice. There is a mature production line in CAC, which means cost of production will not be high. I'm sure J-10C will be more expensive than JF-17 Block 3, but not that much more. I don't expect PAF's J-10C to look exactly like the PLAAF ones. From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there). PAF is getting J-10C for very good price. Aside from that, PLAAF will likely help PAF with maintenance. PAF will have no problem getting spares from China, since PLAAF is going to have a large J-10 fleet for a long time.

And finally, China is able to deliver J-10C to Pakistan at a short notice. I'm sure the PAF J-10C have been in production for most of past year, but getting 25 of them by March is rather impressive. How long did it take IAF to get the 36 Rafale from the time MRCA was announced (20 years)? It's been 10 years since IAF had announced Rafale won the competition. I'm sure China and Pakistan have been negotiating this secretively for years, but they probably only made the decision only in the past couple of years when Rafale started to operate with IAF. Make no mistake, Rafale is a great aircraft. A lot more capable than Su-30MKI. Anyone in China will tell you that JF-17s with AEW support can handle MKI pressure. J-10C may or may not be a better aircraft than Rafale. But in the context of operating in an environment with other aircraft, AEWs and ground radar support, it should be.sufficient in matching that thread for PAF. The sooner that PAF can get J-10Cs and train with it, the more capable J-10Cs will be. Also, keep in mind that in the future, you maybe able to upgrade your aircraft significantly through software upgrades and small hardware upgrades that would be hard to notice from pictures. With the amount of resources China has dedicated to this area, I'm willing to bet J-10C will see significant performance improvements in that way. The investment that China and PLAAF has put into J-20 development will also show up on its other aircraft in different ways.

 

[CriticalThought]

and its not new as well, interest has been shown by PAF few years back and talks were also held, do they were just initial discussions.

In one of the 7th Sep progammes (I think?) a few years back, a PAF pilot openly said that Su-35 is being considered. That is a claim from a very authentic source. Of course, being considered is different from finalized for procurement.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

This is my first time posting on these type of forums for a while, but the topic peaked my interest enough to listen to a bunch of Chinese podcast. So I will say the following.

As much as J-10 export have been discussed for a long time (starting with J-10A long long ago), it really was not very simple to do it until now. And the reason is J-10 have been equipped with AL-31 until the last couple of years. It's one thing to get Russians on board with exporting RD-93s for 150 JF-17s. It's quite another thing to get Russians on board for 25 to 40 J-10s. Now that they have a reliable domestic engine that can be produced in large numbers, they have the ability to both supply domestically and export. China and Russia have very tight relationships. You are not going to see J-11B or J-16 ever get exported to Pakistan. Even though it's of my opinion that J-16/J-16D are more powerful than J-10Cs, China will not piss off the Russians. The next aircraft China will like to export to PAF after this would be whatever comes of FC-31. But who knows how long that will take to get fully developed and mature.

Internet warriors make a common mistake of getting overly excited about possible future capabilities and not about what makes sense from delivery and price and training point of view. It's more important to get aircraft into your service quickly that can immediately improve your training and capabilities rather than continually waiting for an exporter to develop new technology that may take years to be completely certified and reliable. That's the difference between China and India. That's why China got the MKK quickly into its service while the Indians spent days glamorizing MKIs mythical capabilities that took years to get there. Keep in mind, even a "mature"/conservative design like MKK still took years to get certain capabilities that Russians had promised.

J-10C is a no brainer for PAF right now for some very obvious reasons. It has been in service with PLAAF for 6 years and should be mature/reliable by this point. It's been flying with WS-10B for a couple of years. They should've fixed most of the issues by this point. PLAAF has trained with it for that many years and have a good idea how to use it and can pass along that knowledge to PAF. PAF has also trained against it several times with all the joint exercises. In the event of a war, China can send J-10C replacement to PAF at a very short notice. There is a mature production line in CAC, which means cost of production will not be high. I'm sure J-10C will be more expensive than JF-17 Block 3, but not that much more. I don't expect PAF's J-10C to look exactly like the PLAAF ones. From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there). PAF is getting J-10C for very good price. Aside from that, PLAAF will likely help PAF with maintenance. PAF will have no problem getting spares from China, since PLAAF is going to have a large J-10 fleet for a long time.

And finally, China is able to deliver J-10C to Pakistan at a short notice. I'm sure the PAF J-10C have been in production for most of past year, but getting 25 of them by March is rather impressive. How long did it take IAF to get the 36 Rafale from the time MRCA was announced (20 years)? It's been 10 years since IAF had announced Rafale won the competition. I'm sure China and Pakistan have been negotiating this secretively for years, but they probably only made the decision only in the past couple of years when Rafale started to operate with IAF. Make no mistake, Rafale is a great aircraft. A lot more capable than Su-30MKI. Anyone in China will tell you that JF-17s with AEW support can handle MKI pressure. J-10C may or may not be a better aircraft than Rafale. But in the context of operating in an environment with other aircraft, AEWs and ground radar support, it should be.sufficient in matching that thread for PAF. The sooner that PAF can get J-10Cs and train with it, the more capable J-10Cs will be. Also, keep in mind that in the future, you maybe able to upgrade your aircraft significantly through software upgrades and small hardware upgrades that would be hard to notice from pictures. With the amount of resources China has dedicated to this area, I'm willing to bet J-10C will see significant performance improvements in that way. The investment that China and PLAAF has put into J-20 development will also show up on its other aircraft in different ways.

Welcome to the forum and superb input.

Thank you for the clarity.

 

[Gripen9]

A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs

The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.

 

[Rafi]

Let's not make a big deal about helping each other, China and Pakistan cooperation has many layers and "cherries" on top.

 

[CriticalThought]

A lot of the Chinese technology leap has come from
1.getting access to technology through various third party channels
2. reverse engineering it to understand how it works and build knowledge
3. Build upon that knowledge to create better and improved versions initially and then indigenous designs

Let us not forget that 1 and 3 also involve the buying of entire manufacturing plants and companies. There is also the hiring of Russian scientists and engineers at exorbitantly high rates.

 

[SQ8]

Let us not forget that 1 and 3 also involve the buying of entire manufacturing plants and companies. There is also the hiring of Russian scientists and engineers at exorbitantly high rates.

It is the final result that matters to them - being able to maintain parity with their primary threat. Its the same answer I give certain Indians when they are in bragging mode regarding indigenous designs - It doesn’t matter where the bullet comes from, so long as it ensures a kill.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

The certain Iron brother was rumored to have sent copies of CATIA CAD designing software as well that it had gotten from DCN as part of A90B ToT.

I remember one of the senior members at the PakDef forum (now defunct) mentioning something like, that US officials had once queried Pakistani officials about Pakistan sharing F-16 technology with the Chinese.

The Pakistanis swore with their lives that no such thing happened. Then US officials showed them photographs of Chinese personnel inspecting the F-16s. And, that was that.