PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[PakAlp]

Pakistan would have responded whether it was PML N or PPP. Only thing different would have been is that Pakistani Forces would have striked on their own and then told PML N or PPP dumbos to claim victory and take responsibility. Just like Raheel Shareef started the operation in North Wazristan and Nawaz came to know about it through ISPR tweet.

I definitely remember that, PML N, PTI, JI, JUI were making big noise against the operation and PPP, MQM, ANP, PAT and other smaller parties were supporting our army, PML N lead political parties had meetings to gather unity against the operation, then suddenly the army started to attack and PML N government quickly started to take credit for it, there are videos available where PML N leaders were saying we are pro Taliban etc so don't target us. The PPP, ANP were slaughtered with attacks and they could not campaign for elections.

If you go back to 2003 till Musharaff end time, their were parties who opposed Pakistani army entrance to FATA area, during the difficult times they betrayed the army and now the same parties are in bed with the establishment, they all thought Pakistan will collapse and they will have a say in the next kingdom of Pakistan.

 

[maverick1977]

I dont think people realize that PK Armed forces began war gaming S400 a while back.
First don't count on India maintaining S400 units within 100-150KM of the border. They are likely to use these units for air protection against critical military and civilian sites further inland. Their peace time placement is no guarantee of their war time placement.

Second PK Armed forces goal of pushing S400 away from the border is a foregone conclusion. Reason for that is the minute the S400 tracks it paints itself and if within range will expose itself to 4 different type of PK actions. Keep in mind we will go after the Radar and control system not the missile batteries. I wont get into the specifics of what those 4 options are, but PK has atleast 4 different options to engage the S400. I expect S400 to be more actively engaged against PK BMs for more India internal ranged targets than against PAF fighters. During war the clutter in the air along the border will make them very tricky to use effectively.

Pakistan will get good experience planning for S400 during Turk Pakistan air force exercies. I wont worry too much once pakistan learns what the system is and how to counter it.

 

[Ali_Baba]

It's an analysis by someone. Not everyone will come to the same conclusions when dealing with opaque information.

The way I look at the J-10CE is by China's weighing general industrial qualities against that of Europe.

I think China has a solid grounding in electronics, materials sciences, and even gas turbines. In some areas, like software, China's at the cutting edge. In others -- like gas turbines and materials -- it's among the world leaders, though not the leader. That said, the PLAAF banks on the J-10CE to handle sophisticated adversaries, e.g., F-16Vs, Su-30s, F-15s, and Rafales. Thus, the aircraft must have some type of solution for each of those threats.

With those facts in mind, the J-10CE is likely a credible threat against anything. Is it as good as the Rafale? No. However, not being as good doesn't necessarily mean you're not good enough to take it down. The MiG-21bis was not as good as the F-16, but the PAF still considered it a credible threat to the F-16. Moreover, sometimes the qualities of 'being better' aren't necessarily relevant to the scenario we're thinking about. So, the Rafale is a phenomenally better strike and maritime fighter.

That said, given China's strong industrial and very strong software bases, the J-10CE carries a lot of credibility in its own right. IMO, with Chinese equipment (especially mainline PLA stuff), there's no "China lens" anymore. If we're still valuing Russian equipment at a point, I'd automatically add a "+1" or even "+2" to mainline PLA stuff, which brings it to the same conversation as US and EU gear.

tbh my issue with Chinese gear hasn't been the quality, pace of improvement, performance, cost, etc. Rather, my issue is that it gives Pakistani military planners an easy (albeit at times necessary) exit from indigenous development. In of itself, this shouldn't be an issue, but defence is our go-to spending priority as a nation, so I'd prefer seeing that channel through our R&D, our capacity building, and our product growth than someone else's. I'd rather deal with people dismissing our stuff because "it's Pakistani" if it means we enter the same growth trajectory as China, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

@SQ8 @kursed @Chak Bamu

I think when we say that the Rafale is a better plane - that is an aggregate statement and we have to be more clear on where and why. If we consider the individual roles that these multirole platforms are capable off, then we can get an assesment of which is better where.

In air-to-air - both are almost equal, or the J10C has a slight edge due to a bigger radar, and the longer range of the PL15 missile that gives it a first shot advantage, esp in a dense network centric AD environment where the capabilities of the Spectra EW kit will not be as effective. As a strike platform then, i would agree that the Rafale is better with larger payload advantages and also with the capabilities of the SCALP + Apache cruise missiles + Hammer SOW. The additional hardpoints and the EW capabilities of Spectra to protect the plane itself in strike mode come into their own. That is where the Rafale comes into its own and where i think it has to be feared. In Naval - the J10 has a better range of anti-ship missiles available to it compared to the Rafale which only has the MBDA Exocets integrated as of now.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

If PAF does actually go for J10, it will be 100 or more, the number comes from the fact that after rejecting J-10 for 2 decades if finally PAF is accepting it that means that they are happy with it as a replacement for Mirage and a full compliment to F-16, down the road. So looking at that, the future PAF will operate JF-17, J-10 and Azm that will be a formidable conbination

France and U.S.A will surely hesitate to support our mirages and f16s. France will do it on india pressure while U.S.A after Afghanistan episode, Uncle Sam will not negotiate for f16s. J10s is best option for us incase our mirages and F16 becomes obsolete.

 

[syed_yusuf]

I think when we say that the Rafale is a better plane - that is an aggregate statement and we have to be more clear on where and why. If we consider the individual roles that these multirole platforms are capable off, then we can get an assesment of which is better where.

In air-to-air - both are almost equal, or the J10C has a slight edge due to a bigger radar, and the longer range of the PL15 missile that gives it a first shot advantage, esp in a dense network centric AD environment where the capabilities of the Spectra EW kit will not be as effective. As a strike platform then, i would agree that the Rafale is better with larger payload advantages and also with the capabilities of the SCALP + Apache cruise missiles + Hammer SOW. The additional hardpoints and the EW capabilities of Spectra to protect the plane itself in strike mode come into their own. That is where the Rafale comes into its own and where i think it has to be feared. In Naval - the J10 has a better range of anti-ship missiles available to it compared to the Rafale which only has the MBDA Exocets integrated as of now.

What is stopping Pakistan from integrating babur ALCM and raad2 to j20cp

 

[SQ8]

What is stopping Pakistan from integrating babur ALCM and raad2 to j20cp

Requirements - source code requests from OEM.
Its not really a requirement for now - the targets that need to be engaged at the maximum range of the Raad 2(babur air launched will likely not be pursued) are easily achieved by both the Mirage and the JF-17.

 

[denel]

South Africans do provide decoupled solutions like that where WI-FI connection is used to directly control the SOW launch and most likely that’s the case with H-SOWs plus the data link is also a separate pod. So maybe you are on point.

Yes this is correct; you do have bypass option; this was introduced later on when cheetah platform was being developed so as to be plug and play vs trying to rework the platform.

many people said that J10 COPY OF F16, IFV ETC
they should learn more about chengdu J9 FIGHTER

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 804800

Please correct your statement; J9 was stopped. Lavi blueprint is the one on which J10 is based off. Lavi was a direct competitor to F-16 which was then terminated because of american pressure from LM and Isreali govt corruption.

 

[Big_bud]

Kindly go through the forum especially the JF-17 information pool thread before making sweeping statements like the ones highlighted above.

Just an example, the F-16 block 60 of the UAEF, a legitimate 4.5 generation aircraft doesn't have canards, therefore (going by the logic cited), even the block 60 isn't worth the 4th generation stamp?

Just to be clear on this, I believe many of the senior members as well as professionals on this forum would be very comfortable saying this today, that JFT when it was inducted in the PAF (block 1) was better than the F-16 block 15 in many aspects.

You didn't get what I wrote. Comment was in reference to the airframe design + the engine its paired with. As I said, JF needs a strong engine with this design to have good turn rate and nose pointing authority. It can not pull 9G like others can. Anyways, you can believe in whatever you like.

 

[denel]

Block 2s don't have HMDs. They dont have an Aesa. Their fuel tanks are small and hardpoints limited. They have an average engine thrust. They dont have canards. Such an aircraft needs a powerful engine, like F16, if you are going to pitch it against SU30s, Mirages and Migs. They can only fire SD10s. They are not true 4th gens hence they shouldn't be included in the list.

Block 3s once they arrive will be true 4+ Gen. Since PL15s will make a lot of difference in their lethality. Otherwise JFs can't engage in a dogfight comfortably with any of the above.

If ever there is a must have upgrade of JF17s B1/2 - it is incorporation of HMDS with high off bore systems; that alone is a game changer for WVR.

 

[The Eagle]

Secrecy regarding military matters in China is a lot more stern the last 2-3 years compared to before, even most major Chinese military forums are closed. Not many people dare to post any "leaked" photos of new military equipment anymore. People can get in trouble for posting such a information now a days. Before you could still get in trouble but not nearly as serious.

In Pakistan, people starts to insult and question tye dignity.of Force if news is not shared. Difference it is.

Some leaks very sensitive news and still walks away with it. Military Brats, Brigadier's Nephew, General's Relative, Officials brother in law, cousin and even someone with not close relation.

 

[denel]

I don’t understand the obsession with TVC.

It does have some benefits; however those are nullified very significantly once HMDS/High offbore aams are deployed.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[The Eagle]

Why would Pakistan Air Force acquire an aircraft which it has rejected for 2 decades under 3 different Government administrations giving various excuses each it was offered.

If this is coming, this is not the aircraft which was allegedly rejected before. You must be talking about J-10A and J-10B bit this one isn't.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

If PAF does actually go for J10, it will be 100 or more, ...

The Saudis and the Americans paid for the Pakistani F-16s. When Pakistan paid for them, PAF received soya beans instead.

Who's going to pay for J-10s?

 

[The Eagle]

Also, how does having 2 medium-weight combat platforms and 4 light-weight combat platforms at the same time makes any sense for an air force that operates around 400 combat aircraft?

Do you think all those platforms are staying forever? I think you gradually starts with retiring.one after another. Secondly, you add numbers when the existing inventor is adding up due to usual deception by source. Will you just sit and wait? I don't think so but surely, will question PAF sitting idle and doing nothing.