PAF Future Leading Aircraft

[MiG-35-BD]

I think one must have a comprehensive IADS, and look at the problem from a wide angle. This means that one cannot ignore SAM systems. A long range sam system, even a North Korean KN-06 with 150 km range, would give PAF a lot of flexibility and bang for the bucks. It would also mean that PAF's less capable fighters would have an advantage to bank on against incoming enemy fighters.

Any particular reason why the FC31 garnered no interest by PAF? Any drawbacks it might have...or anything that's not to PAFs liking? Why else would PAF resort to spend extra money designing a whole new 5th gen fighter jet rather than making modifications to FC31?

Here are my thoughts on why the FC-31 may not be favored by PAF:

1. Stealth takes up weight and drag, which needs to be compensated with powerful engines. Fc31 doesn't have engines good enough for the kind of drag and weight it it has.
2. It is a SAC product, which is not known to be as proficient as CAC. PAF has traditionally had better relationship with CAC than SAC, which has tended to show inefficiency and less competence.
3. PAF needs an effective a2a platform given MKIs, Rafale, M2Ks, and potentially F-35/F-16/F-18/PAKFA. FC31 design, powerplant, etc is unlikely to be suited for such an a2a focused need.
4. PAF F-16 mafia. US tends to take PAF officers for "training" where they put a lot of emphasis on psychological warfare, subtly to influence their thinking. PAF officers come back feeling like peons for the great Americans. They develop "friendships" and "relations" which ultimately makes them tools of the US. They are often also offered goodies after retirement such as a cushy job, etc. All this means that certain PAF officers would rather pretend to serve the public interest, while sabotaging indigenous programs, as they tried to do with the JF-17. Azm may be an intentional overambition to then "prove" local solutions "aren't as good" a bit like the Indian drama.

However, there is always hope, as ultimately the JF-17 overthrew this cabal and succeeded. So too can Azm. A simple solution with the help of Chengdu, built on pragmatism could do wonders

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think one must have a comprehensive IADS, and look at the problem from a wide angle. This means that one cannot ignore SAM systems. A long range sam system, even a North Korean KN-06 with 150 km range, would give PAF a lot of flexibility and bang for the bucks. It would also mean that PAF's less capable fighters would have an advantage to bank on against incoming enemy fighters.

Here are my thoughts on why the FC-31 may not be favored by PAF:

1. Stealth takes up weight and drag, which needs to be compensated with powerful engines. Fc31 doesn't have engines good enough for the kind of drag and weight it it has.

FC31 doesn't have good enough engines at the moment bcuz no one has backed the project financially...not PLAAF not PLAN and not even any foreign customers(so far). So it's a bit of a chicken and an egg problem. It doesn't have good engines bcuz of a lack of financing and there might be a lack of financing bcuz it has weak engines. With proper funding a higher thrust engine can be developed like it was done with J20. J20 initially started out without proper engines...but with enough funding a separate project of creating powerful engines was established. I don't see why that can't be done with FC31 given proper funding.

2. It is a SAC product, which is not known to be as proficient as CAC. PAF has traditionally had better relationship with CAC than SAC, which has tended to show inefficiency and less competence.

It is true that PAC has a closer working relationship with CAC but I feel like the whole thing about SAC being inefficient and other such negative stereotypes about SAC are just that...stereotypes. They have delivered certain things with which the Chinese armed forces seem satisfied.

3. PAF needs an effective a2a platform given MKIs, Rafale, M2Ks, and potentially F-35/F-16/F-18/PAKFA. FC31 design, powerplant, etc is unlikely to be suited for such an a2a focused need.

Agreed that PAF would put an emphasis on A2A role but what FC31 can achieve(whether it is effective in A2A role or not) remains to be seen.

4. PAF F-16 mafia. US tends to take PAF officers for "training" where they put a lot of emphasis on psychological warfare, subtly to influence their thinking. PAF officers come back feeling like peons for the great Americans. They develop "friendships" and "relations" which ultimately makes them tools of the US. They are often also offered goodies after retirement such as a cushy job, etc. All this means that certain PAF officers would rather pretend to serve the public interest, while sabotaging indigenous programs, as they tried to do with the JF-17. Azm may be an intentional overambition to then "prove" local solutions "aren't as good" a bit like the Indian drama.

However, there is always hope, as ultimately the JF-17 overthrew this cabal and succeeded. So too can Azm. A simple solution with the help of Chengdu, built on pragmatism could do wonders

I also hope Azm turns out to be a success...and personally I can't wait for more details about the program

 

[GriffinsRule]

I think the primary reason for lack of interest in FC-31 (if that is actually the case) would be due to the fact that PLAAF has not committed to the aircraft themselves. It only has 2 prototypes and no where near induction.

PAF has been burnt by PLAAF once before when they decided not to induct FC-1 in their orbit to replace hundreds of F-7s and A-5s that are still flying. I remember in the initial phases of the program, everyone thought that Chinese would be buying a few hundred aircraft as well in order to modernize their forces as well as to lower the costs even further due to economies of scale. CATIC was at one point in the 2010-2011 period was actively promoting the plane to the PLAAF (Usually it falls on AVIC to do so but they had no experience with JF-17). Had the PLAAF been inducting the jet even in token numbers, it would have probably improved its export success even further and much earlier.

I think given that history, it is prudent that PAF will not show any interest in a Chinese jet that they themselves have not already committed to.

 

[Kompromat]

J31 does not enjoy the support of the Chinese Govt. No customer !

Any particular reason why the FC31 garnered no interest by PAF? Any drawbacks it might have...or anything that's not to PAF's liking? Why else would PAF resort to spend extra money designing a whole new 5th gen fighter jet rather than making modifications to FC31?

 

[Trango Towers]

There are no plans to buy an off the shelf solution. The PAF is interested in J-20 and it has been communicated to China at the highest level. If China refuses to export the J-20, PAF will seek a Research, Development and Manufacturing agreement with CAC to develop a new 5th generation platform. There's next to no interest in the J-31 aircraft thus far.

No
5th gen pak design with Chinese input is a fact. It's happening now and I have it from the horses mouth

 

[Kompromat]

Acha Janab, ghussa na karen. I will believe you when i see a document confirming an allocation of funds for such a project.

No
5th gen pak design with Chinese input is a fact. It's happening now and I have it from the horses mouth

 

[Trango Towers]

Acha Janab, ghussa na karen. I will believe you when i see a document confirming an allocation of funds for such a project.

Ok bhai.....just the design work has started. Funds have been allocated but you know PAF. They don't do Indian tamasha.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

I think the primary reason for lack of interest in FC-31 (if that is actually the case) would be due to the fact that PLAAF has not committed to the aircraft themselves. It only has 2 prototypes and no where near induction.

PAF has been burnt by PLAAF once before when they decided not to induct FC-1 in their orbit to replace hundreds of F-7s and A-5s that are still flying. I remember in the initial phases of the program, everyone thought that Chinese would be buying a few hundred aircraft as well in order to modernize their forces as well as to lower the costs even further due to economies of scale. CATIC was at one point in the 2010-2011 period was actively promoting the plane to the PLAAF (Usually it falls on AVIC to do so but they had no experience with JF-17). Had the PLAAF been inducting the jet even in token numbers, it would have probably improved its export success even further and much earlier.

I think given that history, it is prudent that PAF will not show any interest in a Chinese jet that they themselves have not already committed to.

The problem with that argument is that it doesn't logically make sense. Viz:

Option 1: FC-31, not being committed to by the PLAAF so is more risky than an aircraft committed to by the PLAAF.
Option 2: Build Azm from scratch, going for an even more risky option than Option 1.

FC-31 vs Azm
Risky even more risky
Easy to customize a solution for PAF Azm: needs a lot of time, money and effort to build a new solution
All major subsystems already in place and mature prototype flying Azm: still on the drawing board

 

[GriffinsRule]

Except AZM would be developed in house. Had PAF joined the FC-31 in design stages it would have been a different story. Now any purchase of this jet would be basically off-the-shelf. So it is not the same thing.

 

[python-000]

There are no plans to buy an off the shelf solution. The PAF is interested in J-20 and it has been communicated to China at the highest level. If China refuses to export the J-20, PAF will seek a Research, Development and Manufacturing agreement with CAC to develop a new 5th generation platform. There's next to no interest in the J-31 aircraft thus far.

PAF is interested very interesting when they inducted these planes in PAF.....

 

[Kompromat]

Huzoor, project Azm is just like the Turkish Ozgur program. Its purpose is to develop 100% indigenous sub systems and components, eventually leading up to the development of an indigenous fighter. Same goes for the drones. JF-17, Buraq UAV are test beds in this regard.

Except AZM would be developed in house. Had PAF joined the FC-31 in design stages it would have been a different story. Now any purchase of this jet would be basically off-the-shelf. So it is not the same thing.

 

[ziaulislam]

should try to get j20

 

[Ultima Thule]

should try to get j20

J-20 has a ban for export sir @ziaulislam

 

[ziaulislam]

J-20 has a ban for export sir @ziaulislam

says who...?
looking at previous trends its not for pakistan...
but who knows trends can change

though i am sure it will not be on credit as previously, you will need hard cash

 

[Ultima Thule]

says who...?
looking at previous trends its not for pakistan...
but who knows trends can change

though i am sure it will not be on credit as previously, you will need hard cash

Every Chinese senior members stated this fact here on PDF like @Beast , @wanglaokan , @cirr , etc etc,

and how do you know sir that it is not for Pakistan, just your assumption/opinion, i think ban for all countries, just my 2 cent sir @ziaulislam sir