P8-Is: Indian Navy’s eye in the sky

[janon]

As the article says that the non availability of above features on P-8As are offset by the fact that there are a no. of US satellites & other reconnaissance planes doing this job, there was no need for it, besides the important thing is that the range of P-8Is are somewhat limited w.r.t P-8As & also certain on-board features, this was understandable as US will certainly not give advance tech. to India without the signing of CISMOA by the latter, but still IN's need are more than met by these advance birds.

From what I understand, if you do a plane to plane comparison, the P-8Is are more advanced than the P-8As, because it has more equipment, like the aft radar that @Abingdonboy mentioned, and also a MAD sensor. The US doesn't need these goodies, because their birds work in tandem with a helluva lot of supporting systems like a galaxy of satellites, and UAVs. So the P8-As in the service of the USN may be able to achieve more, working with all the rest of their networked systems. But we possibly have the finest ASW aircraft on the planet. (Hooray for bragging rights!)

I'm not sure why the USN did not want the MAD though.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm not sure why the USN did not want the MAD though.

IIRC- weight and cost issues. The USN wanted the P-8A as light as possible and cheap as possible.

 

[janon]

IIRC- weight and cost issues. The USN wanted the P-8A as light as possible and cheap as possible.

As cheap as possible? That doesn't sound like the US. When have they ever given up a capability, because cost was an issue? A capability that the Indian navy thought important enough for their needs?

 

[arp2041]

@Hyperion:

I found this:

 

[OrionHunter]

Here's a super vid of India's P8-I Neptune....

Cheers!

 

[ashok321]

P 8I is also the first weaponry

Its a platform to launch weapons and not a weapon itself.

 

[janon]

Any info on the MRMP aircraft that India is looking to get? How many are planned, and when will a decision be made regarding the vendor? Currently do we have any ASW aircraft other than the Tu-122s? How many of those do we have? Why are we going for such a huge increase in ASW planes? (At least 12, if not 24 P-8Is, and then the MRMPs.)

 

[Abingdonboy]

As cheap as possible? That doesn't sound like the US. When have they ever given up a capability, because cost was an issue? A capability that the Indian navy thought important enough for their needs?

When they are buying 117 units the unit cost needs to be kept as Low as possible so adding a $30-40 million peice if equipment per a/c is going to add serious costs to the overall program. As such the USN have opted to go for more a/c with slightly less capability. Whilst the IN which has gone for less numbers can afford to "pimp-out" each a/c.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Any info on the MRMP aircraft that India is looking to get? How many are planned, and when will a decision be made regarding the vendor? Currently do we have any ASW aircraft other than the Tu-122s? How many of those do we have? Why are we going for such a huge increase in ASW planes? (At least 12, if not 24 P-8Is, and then the MRMPs.)

Expect a decision on MRMP in the next 20 months. The IN is expanding as a whole to expand reach and meet new challenges hence the increase capability of ASW fleet. All areas of the IN are being expanded and upgraded.

 

[janon]

Expect a decision on MRMP in the next 20 months. The IN is expanding as a whole to expand reach and meet new challenges hence the increase capability of ASW fleet. All areas of the IN are being expanded and upgraded.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, threats to us in the form of submarines hasn't increased greatly. Pakistan's submarine arm, while respectable, is not set to increase in numbers hugely. China's subs still can't come into our backyard. The geographical area that needs to be swept by ASW aircrafts continuously is the same, since the oceans aren't getting any bigger. If we replace our Tu-122s one for one with P-8Is, that itself is a huge jump in our ASW capability. So why are we going for such huge numbers?

Maybe we want to take care of the possibility of China's nuclear subs increasing in numbers, or maybe we are looking to expand our area of interest to regions outside the IOR. Maybe they were serious when they talked about having the capability to deploy a fleet far away from home waters for a period of upto three months. Only a true blue water navy needs so many ASW aircrafts.

 

[arp2041]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, threats to us in the form of submarines hasn't increased greatly. Pakistan's submarine arm, while respectable, is not set to increase in numbers hugely. China's subs still can't come into our backyard. The geographical area that needs to be swept by ASW aircrafts continuously is the same, since the oceans aren't getting any bigger. If we replace our Tu-122s one for one with P-8Is, that itself is a huge jump in our ASW capability. So why are we going for such huge numbers?

Maybe we want to take care of the possibility of China's nuclear subs increasing in numbers, or maybe we are looking to expand our area of interest to regions outside the IOR. Maybe they were serious when they talked about having the capability to deploy a fleet far away from home waters for a period of upto three months. Only a true blue water navy needs so many ASW aircrafts.

Buddy, believe it or not but IOR will soon become a PLAYGROUND for World's BIGGIES, since Asia will be the Global center of Power in 21st century, all major countries - France, UK, China, India, US, Japan, etc. will compete for space in IOR as the majority of Global trade will pass through these sea lanes, China has gone on to record in saying that we can no longer accept Indian Ocean as India's Ocean & all there major expansion lately has to do with the LONG LEGS which they want to travel west into IOR, they have already started playing there game with having strategic partnership with our neighbors. So acquiring P-8Is in huge nos. (as much as 24+) has nothing to do with Pakistan as our Tu-122 are more than sufficient, but it has everything to do with China's assertion in the IOR in years to come.

As for Tu-122s, we are not replacing them with P-8Is, all 12 have been upgraded to last till 2025.

+ U should also not forget that P-8Is are not just ASW a/c but Anti-surface warfare, reconnaissance, sort of AWACS also to strengthen IN's Net-Centric Warfare Capability.

 

[sancho]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, threats to us in the form of submarines hasn't increased greatly. Pakistan's submarine arm, while respectable, is not set to increase in numbers hugely. China's subs still can't come into our backyard. The geographical area that needs to be swept by ASW aircrafts continuously is the same, since the oceans aren't getting any bigger. If we replace our Tu-122s one for one with P-8Is, that itself is a huge jump in our ASW capability. So why are we going for such huge numbers?

We also have the IL 38s MPAs, but besides that you are missing some points here. First of all, PN has already inducted AIP in their agosta subs and is likely to get Chinese subs with AIP as well. There surface fleet is not an issue for us and will remain defensive, but with AIP and the close distance to our coastal areas in the west, they do pose a threat!
PLAN has more important things to do, than playing games with IN in the Indian Ocean, but in case of war, their nuke subs will pose the biggest threat to India at all. Their SSBNs are ready and loaded with balistic missiles, that has long ranges and in any case, IN must be able to find and counter the threat. The problem is, how do you find a sub in such a large area as fast as possible? The answer is, with MPAs, because only they can cover a wide area of the Ocean in a short time. Of course it will be in combination with our hunter subs and surfance fleet, but they need longer and way higher numbers to cover the same area, as a single MPA can.

So the ASW role is the most important role of IN at all, but besides that, an MPA is mainly a surveillance aircraft! Search and destroy of subs is just one part of it, we also need to keep an eye on smaller vessels to provide coastal defence, just like we have to secure the Sea Lanes as the main navy in this area. To do all this effectively, we need sufficient numbers and although I expect 30 to be the total number of MPAs including the MRMRs.

 

[arp2041]

We also have the IL 38s MPAs, but besides that you are missing some points here. First of all, PN has already inducted AIP in their agosta subs and is likely to get Chinese subs with AIP as well. There surface fleet is not an issue for us and will remain defensive, but with AIP and the close distance to our coastal areas in the west, they do pose a threat!
PLAN has more important things to do, than playing games with IN in the Indian Ocean, but in case of war, their nuke subs will pose the biggest threat to India at all. Their SSBNs are ready and loaded with balistic missiles, that has long ranges and in any case, IN must be able to find and counter the threat. The problem is, how do you find a sub in such a large area as fast as possible? The answer is, with MPAs, because only they can cover a wide area of the Ocean in a short time. Of course it will be in combination with our hunter subs and surfance fleet, but they need longer and way higher numbers to cover the same area, as a single MPA can.

So the ASW role is the most important role of IN at all, but besides that, an MPA is mainly a surveillance aircraft! Search and destroy of subs is just one part of it, we also need to keep an eye on smaller vessels to provide coastal defence, just like we have to secure the Sea Lanes as the main navy in this area. To do all this effectively, we need sufficient numbers and although I expect 30 to be the total number of MPAs including the MRMRs.

But sancho, do u think PLAN will take a risk to send there subs in IOR in an emergency when they can do the job by sitting in SCS?? So does that mean, P-8Is will sneak into SCS??

+ Just curious, what these ASW ac do when they find a hostile sub in Peacetime, since i have never heard of a kill in Peacetime??

 

[janon]

But sancho, do u think PLAN will take a risk to send there subs in IOR in an emergency when they can do the job by sitting in SCS?? So does that mean, P-8Is will sneak into SCS??

+ Just curious, what these ASW ac do when they find a hostile sub in Peacetime, since i have never heard of a kill in Peacetime??

Hostile subs won't come into our waters during peacetime. If they do, they will do their best to remain undetected. If they do come, and they are detected, then I'm assuming there must be procedures to contact them and find out what is going on. Just like warning signals are given if an aircraft "buzzes" a naval fleet or a surface vessel comes too close. If they do any kind of hostile maneuver, like surfacing to fire a shot, they will be eliminated. Once detected, subs can be tailed easily by other subs or MPAs.

I don't know the exact SOP under such circumstances, so I'm guessing.

 

[ashok321]

+ Just curious, what these ASW ac do when they find a hostile sub in Peacetime, since i have never heard of a kill in Peacetime??

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/230004-p8-indian-navy-s-eye-sky-2.html#ixzz2IEkfZiAw

Each nation's forces have rules of engagement. If the hostile platform has intruded in its territory, then, as a matter of self defense, a sovereign nation is free to defend itself.

International Case Law in this is that of Pakistan's Atlantique which was downed by IAF with impunity, Pakistan went to ICJ without success:

Atlantique incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China can be dealt with in similar fashion, why not?