p 17 & type 052c comparison

[tanlixiang28776]

I'm not an expert on Indian ships but i'll list the properties of the P 15A here in similar fashion to the type 52D. If i have made any mistakes please point then out but do it in a professional manner please.

Weight

The P15A's full displacement is 7000 tons

Radar

the P 15A's main array is the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar fitted on the top end of a faceted structure on the upper superstructure. This is in contrast to other to the more conventional APARs fitted directly on the bridge. This gives a higher place for the radar but is a also smaller in surface area.

Armament

64 barak 8- 70 km surface to air missile

16 brahmos- 300 km supersonic anti ship missile

Ak 100- 100mm main gun

CIWS

4 ak 630

32 barak 1 - 12 km surface to air missile

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Now on the original subject of comparing the type 052C to the P17. While i believe this comparison to be an bit odd seeing as one is a fleet defense destroyer and the other a frigate i will nevertheless go on and do it anyway

Weight

The type 52C is 7000 tons at full displacement and the P17 6200 tons

Radar

the type 52C uses the 346 AESA radar while the shivalak uses EL/M 2238 STAR pulse doplar radar

Armament

Anti air missiles

the type 52C uses 48 HQ-9 missiles - 200 km range and capability to intercept terminal phase ballistic missiles

the P 17 uses 24 shtil missiles- 30 km range

CIWS

type 52C uses two independent type 730 gatling guns

P17 uses two directed AK 630

I don't know how many barak 1 - 12 km missiles it has. if someone knows pls tell me

Antiship weapons

type 52 C uses the 8 YJ 62- 400 km range missile

P 17 uses 8 klub- 130 km range missile or Brahmos- 300 km supersonic missile

don't know if brahmos is fitted someone tell me if it is.

the type 52C has also been seen with DH 10 cruise missiles- 2000 km range

 

[tanlixiang28776]

So gessler on what basis is the 52C inferior to P15A?

Anti air ? the 52C has missiles that outrange P15A's by 3 fold with BMD capabilities

Antiship? the 52C has them from 400 to 2000 km range compared to the P15A's 300 km ones

CIWS? the type 52C use autonomous type 730s compared to the directed AK630s on the P15A

only advantage i see is the 32 Barak 1 12 km defense missiles in VLU.

Otherwise the 52C is superior. This is backed by taking a comprehensive look at systems on board the two ships.

If you want to prove otherwise better do some actual research like I did.

Not to mention the fact that there are 6 type 52C completed with the first active since 2003 while the first P 15A is yet to be completed.

 

[applesauce]

052d is too much for IN, Yj62 anti-ship missile has range of 280km plus. That out range all the Indian destroyers and frigates in service.

280 km is range for the exported version to comply with MTCR. domestic versions have >400 km range far out ranging the 290km range of the brahmos

You are proving each one of my claims as 100% correct.

First of all, I don't see how this "anti-air focus" of your gunboats is going to sh!t it out once into battle. FYI, a Su-30MKI would be tossing upto three PJ-10s at you from 300km away and scoot. What's the point of having a longer ranged SAM when you ain't gonna get the enemy plane anyway??

lol now your bringing in the air force guess you must be running out of arguments.
very well, your su-30 with its huge RCS will be blown out of the sky by j10 and j20 before you get within 1000km of our naval force.

by the way, according to your logic, no ships should carry long range sams then, guess your claiming to be smarter than the USN, PLAN, RN and other world class navies.

This is why Indian warships like the P-15A for instance focuses more on SAMs with better probability of kill, better turn rate, more G-stress tolerence, rather than more range, which is technically useless. The Barak-8 is such a SAM, developed jointly by India & Israel with a range of 70-80km and is capable of intercepting even supersonic missiles that have maneuverability better than the Sunburn missile. Do you know Israel plans to use this system to intercept the P-800/Yakhont missile acquired by Syria? I doubt your HHQ-9 has the same capability, if so, prove it.

The HHQ-9 is another stupid copy of the Russian S-300V.

oh lol see your argument above, actually let me use your words again:

FYI, a JH-7A would be tossing upto fourc-803s at you from 300km away and scoot. What's the point of having a better trun rate SAM when you ain't gonna get the enemy plane anyway?

oh and the hq-9 certainly has influence from the s-300, but only an idiot would claim its a copy.

The first P-15B was launched several months ago. At one hand I proving how 052C is worse than P-15A and you think it's better than P-15B Chinese blind patriotsm. Does the CCP pay you in
dollars or yuans?

if your idea of proving is failing at every arguement you make, then ya your proving a lot.

" Indian blind patriotsm. Does the RAW pay you in dollars or yuans?", cause the rupee is useless

The P-15A already has a better AESA than the one supposed to be put on 052D. By the time P-15B comes, India will have its own AESA APAR ready for deployment. The MF-STAR radar can
track and jam the Aegis combat system electronics if within range, I doubt your Chinese-quality electronis can do that.

lol cause the chinese military tell you exactly what the capabilities of their home made APAR is right?
and you think the P-15A can jam aegis systems lol the Americans must be so afraid of the super duper Indian navy.

I compared your very low missile-carrying ability of 052C with that of P-15. And you started comparing the whole ship. CCP troll. Go home friend. I don't think even the Shtils have a provlem
intercepting that slowpoke YJ-62 of yours. Let alone Barak-VIII.

oh look at this time for your words again

I compared your very slow ship building rate with that of 052C. And you started comparing the anti-ship missile number. Indian troll. Go home friend. I don't think even the CIWS would have a problem
intercepting that unproven, short ranged, massive IR signature producing Brahmos of yours. Let alone the missiles in the new vls.

Shut up idiot. The chart proving P-17 (built in 2010) superior to 054A is back in page 1. Go there and read it again. P-15B is far superior, pretty much comparable to Zumwalt atleast on the firepower aspect.

bahhahahahahah you think now the indians have a ship as good as the best from america, sure... super powa india lololololololololol

You could build less than 50 frontline warships in last 25-30 years.

lolol go look at the number of front line ships built in the last 5 years and compare that with indiaoh wait, lololol go compare that with america even

Hypersonic version doen'st have the range restriction, it can reach out to upto 700km. Besides YJ-62 is too and easy to intercept, or even jam.

proof for the 700km range, you dont have it cause ur pulling that outta ur 4$$. and the yj-62 is easy to intercept lololol cause the massive IR signature of the brahmos is so much harder to detect than the water skimming yj-62 that goes super sonic when in range.

Russians could build better ships in 80s.

Thats's why I called you an imbecile.

hahaha you think the Russians can build a 052c/d in the 80's and your calling me an imbecile ? lolololol, okay name one such ship that soviets built that is Superior to the 052C

How many targets can that small round radar track? 1??

lol the APAR on the 052D is among the biggest in the world, you cant even tell the APAR from the CIWS targeting radar? lololololololol at any rate it only need to track like 3, cause thats how many p-15A's you got lololololololololol

 

[tanlixiang28776]

P 15B? WTF. The first P 15A has yet to be commissioned and hes talking about P15B?

Is this guy real?

And lol this guy thinks the radar for the type 730 CIWS is the APARs of the ship. Real professional right here.

As for the HQ 9

I'll let the image speak for itself. The HQ 9 is a full meter shorter than the S 300 and 2/3rds as wide. Its range however is the same as the latest s 300s. If the missiles dimensions are that different and you still want to claim its a copy then go ahead. The only one you're fooling is yourself.

 

[Gessler]

So gessler on what basis is the 52C inferior to P15A?

Anti air ? the 52C has missiles that outrange P15A's by 3 fold with BMD capabilities

So? P15A carries 64 SAMs while 052C carries 48. Having a longer ranged SAM is not technically advantageous as I have explain above in my previous posts. It's better off to have a larger number of shorter-ranged SAMs with more G-stress tolerence, more maneuverability and more kill probability, like Barak-VIII.

It seems HHQ-9 can intercept ballistic missiles in terminal stage but I don't see how that helps (I mean, who would be raining ballistic missiles on a 150-metre long warship, that too a moving target??). But the Barak-VIII can also do that,,,in addition, the Barak has the capability to interceot Supersonic cruise/terminal stage cruise missiles more effieciently that any other SAM system devised so far.

YJ-62s, C-802/803s, and other ASCMs of PLAN are gonna have a tough time getting past this system.

Senior security officials have recently told "Globes" that gas discoveries in the Mediterranean Sea have intensified the need to expand IDF activity in the maritime sector. They believe that it is a real possibility that these threats will turn into attempted attacks. A few months ago, Minister for Home Front Defense Matan Vilnai warned that that there is a threat to the gas fields from Syria's missiles. Vilnai did not elaborate about what type of missiles, but the "immediate suspect" is the Russian Yakhont Cruise Missile. The Israeli security establishment is concerned about the Syrians owning these missiles and the vulnerability of Israel naval vessels. However, when a missile can hit accurately at 300 km, it is more capable of hitting a fixed target, like a gas rig. One of the security establishment's assumptions is that whatever Syria has will eventually reach Hizbullah, so it is possible that harm will come from Hizbullah. It is some consolation to know though, that the IAI's Barak 8, is capable of intercepting the Yakhont.

Former Israel Navy chief: Israel can defend its gas fileds | globes.co.il

Antiship? the 52C has them from 400 to 2000 km range compared to the P15A's 300 km ones

Only the YJ-62 surpasses the range of BrahMos among ASCMs here. The 1800km missile is not anti-ship, that's a land-attack cruise missile HN-2. P15A will be fitted with Nirbhay LACM with a full payload/range of 1000km, and a lessened payload/fuel alterated range of upto 2,100km. (Not counting any advanced version).



But again, speed, accuracy, which go directly relevent to the reaction time you comfort the enemy with, are more important than mere range. And besides, let me reveal to you that the range of BrahMos Block-I ASCM was limited not due to MTCR but due to the OTHT capabilities available with IN, which did not permit the effective use of a long-range cruise missile,,,otherwise PJ-10 is well capable of upto 700km with assisted fuels and refined RAMJETs, or 550km as it is right now. As soon as IN procures the required capabilities, the range of PJ-10 will be considerably increased.

If you have any doubts regarding this, you may enquire here - TRISHUL
That site is owned by Prasun K. Sengupta who has a lot of insider info about military systems. Post a comment
in any thread and he'll reply soon with an answer.

CIWS? the type 52C use autonomous type 730s compared to the directed AK630s on the P15A

True. But however P15A has 4 x 30mm cannons while 052C has only 2.

only advantage i see is the 32 Barak 1 12 km defense missiles in VLU.

That ain't the only advantage. P15A can carry 2 x choppers while 052C can carry only 1. P15A also has advantage in the radar and electronic warfare system (MF-STAR AESA, STAR, HUMSA, LW-08, Deseaver Mk.III) and also P15A is fundamentally a more stealthy design than 052C - lessened protrusions, low-profile masts, angled-surface radar casings, etc.

Otherwise the 52C is superior. This is backed by taking a comprehensive look at systems on board the two ships.

Oh yeah? Well just read my post again.

If you want to prove otherwise better do some actual research like I did.

You have researched nuts. You just chose to read selectively that's all.

Not to mention the fact that there are 6 type 52C completed with the first active since 2003 while the first P 15A is yet to be completed.

Irrelevent. We are talking about the capability of each ship and not when what is completed and commissioned. However, I agree that the pace of Indian shipbuilding needs to improve.

@applesauce

read my reply to tanlixiang28776

 

[Gessler]

Now on the original subject of comparing the type 052C to the P17. While i believe this comparison to be an bit odd seeing as one is a fleet defense destroyer and the other a frigate i will nevertheless go on and do it anyway

Weight

The type 52C is 7000 tons at full displacement and the P17 6200 tons

Radar

the type 52C uses the 346 AESA radar while the shivalak uses EL/M 2238 STAR pulse doplar radar

Armament

Anti air missiles

the type 52C uses 48 HQ-9 missiles - 200 km range and capability to intercept terminal phase ballistic missiles

the P 17 uses 24 shtil missiles- 30 km range

CIWS

type 52C uses two independent type 730 gatling guns

P17 uses two directed AK 630

I don't know how many barak 1 - 12 km missiles it has. if someone knows pls tell me

Antiship weapons

type 52 C uses the 8 YJ 62- 400 km range missile

P 17 uses 8 klub- 130 km range missile or Brahmos- 300 km supersonic missile

don't know if brahmos is fitted someone tell me if it is.

the type 52C has also been seen with DH 10 cruise missiles- 2000 km range

This comparison is irrelevent as I have already stated in Page 1. you are a fool to repeatedly compare
a frigate with a destroyer with the hope that your ship stands in good light compared to Indian ship.

I too would like to match off P-15A v/s Type-054A and bash the latter. But I'm more sensible than you
so I won't do it. If you wanna compare P-17, compare it with Type-054A, if you want to compare the
Type-052C, compare it with P-15A. Simple

 

[ViXuyen]

Stop talking about that piece of junk called HQ-9 or 20 or whatever it is. Pure junk that the Iranian don't even want despite how desperate they are for their air defence right now.

 

[Gessler]

P 15B? WTF. The first P 15A has yet to be commissioned and hes talking about P15B?

Is this guy real?

And lol this guy thinks the radar for the type 730 CIWS is the APARs of the ship. Real professional right here.

As for the HQ 9

I'll let the image speak for itself. The HQ 9 is a full meter shorter than the S 300 and 2/3rds as wide. Its range however is the same as the latest s 300s. If the missiles dimensions are that different and you still want to claim its a copy then go ahead. The only one you're fooling is yourself.

I'm not serious about the size of the radar really. I meant it as a joke. But really professional members
out there like Tamhlixiang and Applesauce lol took it seriously.

 

[RISING SUN]

P15A has been built for 10 years.10 years! Orz....052C was spotted in shipyard in 2003 and has been in service for years....and in 2012 we spotted 052D in shipyard.we have more experience and more advanced technology than India,even russia,on using aegis equivalent system.
does IN even have an aegis equivalent warship now?

You only spot your warship only when it is going to be launched or commissioned. While back in India we can see the ship being constructed actually from the scratch. That is why we start reporting when construction is going to start while in China case its just opposite. So as you presumed India takes more time to build P15 while China starts building 052D in 2012 % ship is complete before 2012 year ends. What an achievement sir ji. & when I say that China starts building ship,I mean you have spotted it. As per your contention there is no chance that until you don't spot its building is not gonna start. Right mate?

 

[Gessler]

You only spot your warship only when it is going to be launched or commissioned. While back in India we can see the ship being constructed actually from the scratch. That is why we start reporting when construction is going to start while in China case its just opposite. So as you presumed India takes more time to build P15 while China starts building 052D in 2012 % ship is complete before 2012 year ends. What an achievement sir ji. & when I say that China starts building ship,I mean you have spotted it. As per your contention there is no chance that until you don't spot its building is not gonna start. Right mate?

Actually Lyrics guy here is wrong. P-15A started construction in March 2006 and is to be completed by
early 2013. that makes > 7 years. not 10 years. successcive P-15A started construction in Sep 2009 and
April 2010 and are to be delivered in late-2014 and 2015 respectively, that makes 5-6 years. A lot lesser
than previous ships. This time reduces considerly as we learn to build new ships faster with new
infrastructure.

 

[RISING SUN]

I'm not an expert on Indian ships but i'll list the properties of the P 15A here in similar fashion to the type 52D. If i have made any mistakes please point then out but do it in a professional manner please.

Weight

The P15A's full displacement is 7000 tons

Radar

the P 15A's main array is the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar fitted on the top end of a faceted structure on the upper superstructure. This is in contrast to other to the more conventional APARs fitted directly on the bridge. This gives a higher place for the radar but is a also smaller in surface area.

Armament

64 barak 8- 70 km surface to air missile

16 brahmos- 300 km supersonic anti ship missile

Ak 100- 100mm main gun

CIWS

4 ak 630

32 barak 1 - 12 km surface to air missile

I don't think It will wight around 6800-7000. It will be in the range of 7000 to 8000 tons. You can mark my words. Indian navy loves to surprise everyone. Remember the Shivalik class fissaco,when every one was claiming it to be 4000-5000 ton in Wikipedia & everywhere,it is well over 6000 ton. No one seems to take it under consideration that its predecessor Delhi class was only 6,900 tonnes,and it is clearly stated that it will cross Delhi class. Total funny.
For radar thing mate I really don't know much. so sorry.
For range part I was reading in different forums. It is stated that India & Israel are working on 3 SAM projects & range is around 70 to 150. There is only one confusion that which one is Barak 8 actually. although Wikipedia states 70 KM.

In last I want to say only one thing don't ever underestimate Indian naval arm. It is pretty good at deceiving enemy.

 

[RISING SUN]

First P-15A's construction started in March 2006. Delivery is scheduled for early 2013. How does that make
10 years? Its 7 yrs. Successive P-15As were started in Sep. 2009 and April 2010, and they are to be
delievered in late-2014 and 2015 respectively. That means 6 years and 5 years.

The P-15B's hull is basically the same as P-15A with mnay
improvements,,,itt not gonna take many years to deliver the first ship. A great deal of new infrastructure
would be place within the next 6 months and will grow further as time goes by.

Secondly, I believe its the CAPABILITY of each ship that's being discussed here, not when you
built it and when you commissioned it,,,you built it sooner, but whats the use its still inferior to
our ships.

You have pretty much messed up here buddy. I am just correcting it. Don't take it as offense please.
Name Laid down Launched Commissioning
INS Kolkata 27 September 2003 30 March 2006 September 2012
INS Kochi 25 October 2005 18 September 2009 June 2013
INS Chennai21 February 2006 1 April 2010 March 2014
1st ship is taking 9 years,2nd 7-8 years,3rd 7-8 years.
Yes we have taken some time. There are many reasons there. Why should we be afraid of anyone? Our need is limited. We are going to build 300-400 ships navy. So we have to build in lesser no. Time is a factor in comparison but not the only one.

 

[RISING SUN]

I'm Just going to give a few basic facts of the type 52D here. Compare as you like on your own.

Weight.

Approximately 7,000 to 8,000 tons fully loaded compared to the type 52C's 7000 tons fully loaded. Propulsion is same or slightly upgraded.

Radar: an enlarged and upgraded version of the type 52C's 346 AESA radar which when it came out in 2003 was considered one of the largest or even largest ship based AESA radars at that time. The one on the 52D is the largest in the world bar none at the moment.

Armament.

The type 52D incorporates 64 CCL VLUs. These VLUS are currently the largest based on ships at 850mm by up to 9 meters. These are capable of being quad packed as well as being able to fire cold and hot launched missiles.

The missiles capable of being fired include

HQ 9- 200 km range surface to air missile also capable of terminal phase ballistic missile interception- one per cell

HQ 16- 50 km air to surface missile - can be quad packed

YJ 62- 400 km range antiship missle- one per cell

DH 10- 4000 km cruise missile- one per cell

CJ 10- 2000 km cruise missile- one per cell

ASROC type torpedos- one per cell

YJ 83- 200 km supersonic antiship missile- one per cell

Main gun is the 70 caliber 130mm PJ 38 capable of firing PGMs and normal rounds

CIWS include a 7 barrel type 730 and a 21 round, 15 km range HQ 10 mount.

1- Same weight category as Kolkata class.
2- The radar mounted on the Type 052C has been called both the Type 346 and the Type 348. It is not certain which designation belongs to the indigenous Chinese system described in this article, and which was given to a system imported to China from the Kvant Design Bureau of Ukraine. The Kvant radar operated in the C band and had a range of only 150-160 km.
International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Notes from AeroIndia and IDEX
Maxmimum range: 450 km
Maxmimum resolution: 0.5 meters
Primary band of operation: S band
Integrated circuitry: GaAs MMIC
EL/M-2248 MF-STAR Multi-mission radar
Performance
Low level missile >25 Km
high flying fighter aircraft >250
S band solid state
It comes with BARAK NG & BARAK 8 which is called mini AEGIS in western standards.
I dont understand the term VLUS. Will you explain it with links?

 

[Gessler]

I'm Just going to give a few basic facts of the type 52D here. Compare as you like on your own.

Weight.

Approximately 7,000 to 8,000 tons fully loaded compared to the type 52C's 7000 tons fully loaded. Propulsion is same or slightly upgraded.

Radar: an enlarged and upgraded version of the type 52C's 346 AESA radar which when it came out in 2003 was considered one of the largest or even largest ship based AESA radars at that time. The one on the 52D is the largest in the world bar none at the moment.

Armament.

The type 52D incorporates 64 CCL VLUs. These VLUS are currently the largest based on ships at 850mm by up to 9 meters. These are capable of being quad packed as well as being able to fire cold and hot launched missiles.

The missiles capable of being fired include

HQ 9- 200 km range surface to air missile also capable of terminal phase ballistic missile interception- one per cell

HQ 16- 50 km air to surface missile - can be quad packed

YJ 62- 400 km range antiship missle- one per cell

DH 10- 4000 km cruise missile- one per cell

CJ 10- 2000 km cruise missile- one per cell

ASROC type torpedos- one per cell

YJ 83- 200 km supersonic antiship missile- one per cell

Main gun is the 70 caliber 130mm PJ 38 capable of firing PGMs and normal rounds

CIWS include a 7 barrel type 730 and a 21 round, 15 km range HQ 10 mount.

Atleast this great researcher has to know that HQ-16 is surface-to-air and not air-to-surface.