Opposition to Islamic Caliphate thread

[DrawingDead]

Yes I live in United states, how does that make me hypocrite? I live United States and stand up for my beliefs. You live in Pakistan and abandon them.

You hate us but don't have problem making full use of the advantages offered by the US. You encourage all Muslims to fight for the Muslim cause yet you sit here in the safety and comfort we provide. You constantly complain that we oppress the Muslims of this world and yet you have no qualms enjoying the fruits of that oppression. Take a look at the definition of the word "hypocrite" in Websters, it has a picture of you next to it.

 

[KingMamba]

Every people has a right to self determination in which they can choose a government of their own choice. For outsiders the Iranian or Saudi form of government does and quite frankly is a form of dictatorship yet at the same time most Iranians and Saudis living within their countries support their system. Instead many just want more rights within the system not a complete overhaul. Therefore why should the Muslims of these countries be subject to the whims of Muslims of other countries? The Caliphate is not a requirement upon Muslims, being good Muslims is a requirement upon Muslims. However if one nation of Muslims decide they want to establish a caliphate then they are well within their right to do so. The Caliph if you break it down is basically an elected official with no term limit, so a Republican President of a Muslim country can indeed be considered a Caliph if the Muslims declare him as such. Or if you are Shia it is basically a form of hereditary Monarchy.

Now on the other hand you have Daesh. Daesh did not give the people of Iraq the right of self determination, their "caliphate" was formed at the end of a sword and like any government formed at the end of a sword it is illegitimate. However even an illegitimate government can gain legitimacy by ruling with justice, Daesh however has not even done that so on top of being illegitimate they are unjust which means the only thing they deserve is complete destruction.

 

[TankMan]

However even an illegitimate government can gain legitimacy by ruling with justice

In case of Daesh, I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Falcon29]

You hate us but don't have problem making full use of the advantages offered by the US. You encourage all Muslims to fight for the Muslim cause yet you sit here in the safety and comfort we provide. You constantly complain that we oppress the Muslims of this world and yet you have no qualms enjoying the fruits of that oppression. Take a look at the definition of the word "hypocrite" in Websters, it has a picture of you next to it.

I don't hate Americans. Secondly dumb idiot, no one here has advantages besides people from wealthy Jewish families. Other than that everyone has to make it on their own(unless they want minimum wage job for their lifetime).

 

[KingMamba]

In case of Daesh, I wouldn't count on it.

I would not either but even they can reform if they truly wished to do so.

 

[Falcon29]

Every people has a right to self determination in which they can choose a government of their own choice. For outsiders the Iranian or Saudi form of government does and quite frankly is a form of dictatorship yet at the same time most Iranians and Saudis living within their countries support their system. Instead many just want more rights within the system not a complete overhaul. Therefore why should the Muslims of these countries be subject to the whims of Muslims of other countries? The Caliphate is not a requirement upon Muslims, being good Muslims is a requirement upon Muslims. However if one nation of Muslims decide they want to establish a caliphate then they are well within their right to do so. The Caliph if you break it down is basically an elected official with no term limit, so a Republican President of a Muslim country can indeed be considered a Caliph if the Muslims declare him as such. Or if you are Shia it is basically a form of hereditary Monarchy.

Now on the other hand you have Daesh. Daesh did not give the people of Iraq the right of self determination, their "caliphate" was formed at the end of a sword and like any government formed at the end of a sword it is illegitimate. However even an illegitimate government can gain legitimacy by ruling with justice, Daesh however has not even done that so on top of being illegitimate they are unjust which means the only thing they deserve is complete destruction.

ME can't overcome any of its challenges without forming single state. And it's only way to improve morals of region and end corruption. Without it, ME will remain as it is today if not worse with never ending infighting, and peoples plights ignored.

 

[KingMamba]

Muslims are not the only people that live in predominantly Muslim countries, a caliphate would not be fair to minorities, in fact it is pure discrimination. This would be no different if Muslims living in western countries would not be allowed to attend mosques, they would be forced to dress a certain way, they would be forced to pay fines, ect.

If many Muslims were upset about a cartoon imagine if they were subject to live under the same type of discrimination that they dish out to others.

Any system of government can become discriminatory. You are assuming that a Caliphate is by definition discriminatory, this is nothing more then propaganda.

 

[Mutakalim]

@SaG E Jillani88 This is a good example of why people oppose the idea of a Caliphate. They assume it's discriminatory, and Muslims ourselves have created this assumption because most of us aren't informed enough about Islam and the Caliphate system in particular.

I have started to write a book about islmic system of government and what led to its failure. These points will certainly help. Any book you recommend?

 

[KingMamba]

ME can't overcome any of its challenges without forming single state. And it's only way to improve morals of region and end corruption. Without it, ME will remain as it is today if not worse with never ending infighting, and peoples plights ignored.

You can believe that one state would solve many problems, but you seem to disregard the drawback of bigger states. Namely the fact that the larger the state the harder it is to administer said state, if the ME was to become one single state it would be so big that it would have to be administered through a decentralized form of government. This means that the center would have less power due to the very size of the country and therefore have little leeway in ending corruption. In a smaller state power can be centralized quickly and if even one just ruler arises he or she can quickly push reform to end corruption.

 

[DrawingDead]

I don't hate Americans. Secondly dumb idiot, no one here has advantages besides people from wealthy Jewish families. Other than that everyone has to make it on their own(unless they want minimum wage job for their lifetime).

Having the opportunity to make it on your own is part of the advantage the US offers. Try it somewhere in the Middle East. See how it works out for you.

 

[Falcon29]

You can believe that one state would solve many problems, but you seem to disregard the drawback of bigger states. Namely the fact that the larger the state the harder it is to administer said state, if the ME was to become one single state it would be so big that it would have to be administered through a decentralized form of government. This means that the center would have less power due to the very size of the country and therefore have little leeway in ending corruption. In a smaller state power can be centralized quickly and if even one just ruler arises he or she can quickly push reform to end corruption.

Either way it is better alternative.

Having the opportunity to make it on your own is part of the advantage the US offers. Try it somewhere in the Middle East. See how it works out for you.

Doesn't matter what opportunities there are genius. You don't get yourself there you won't get anywhere. Every society has jobs. Not sure what's so advantegous of US having them too.


This thread has so much traffic , why? LOL

 

[TankMan]

I have started to write a book about islmic system of government and what led to its failure. These points will certainly help. Any book you recommend?

@syedali73 has a lot more knowledge than me in these matters, he could recommend books etc for you. My personal views are made up of a variety of sources over a long period of time and I honestly don't remember most of them, my apologies I couldn't be more helpful.

All the best for your book.

 

[ptldM3]

You seem to believe an Islamic Caliphate means that. It does not. A Caliph must be chosen by consensus, then assemblies like the Majlis e Shura (Parliament, basically) must be formed and the cornerstone of all this is Justice for minorities and majority alike.

We know that is not true that is why minorities live like second class citizens under caliphate rule, that is if they are not killed first or forced to convert first.

How is it any different to Democracy? If the majority wants Caliphate, it is no more discriminatory to minorities than Western Democracy is.

You live in the UK so if the majority of the people wanted to get rid of Islam and outlaw mosques and burkas, impose, tax on Muslims, ect. That would not be discrimination?

 

[Mosamania]

Well let’s be clear.
In my opinion these two regimes are the greatest enemies of Islam. They are menace to Muslim. If Muslim wants to end that bloodshed they should eradicate these dictatorial regimes. Dictatorship and Islamic system of government has no relation.

What is the Islamic system of governance? The Infallible leaders of Ahl Bait? I am Ahl Bait and I don't believe in this crap.

 

[ptldM3]

Any system of government can become discriminatory. You are assuming that a Caliphate is by definition discriminatory, this is nothing more then propaganda.

That is because it is discriminatory by definition as well as in practice.