Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)

[S-2]

"In its statement the ISPR has conceded the presence of mass graves in the conflict-hit area. However, HRCP believes that this is not enough and the government must conduct a transparent inquiry into this issue to ascertain the circumstances under which the bodies were buried. The military cannot simply explain the existence of these mass graves by alleging that the bodies were of militants buried by other militants. HRCP has knowledge of other versions to the contrary."

Whether endorsed or ordered as a matter of state policy, or not, is beside the point. Thematter is serious and, as yet, undetermined. Posts made here should be addressed to the HRCP as they've knowledge of other versions and could use the mitigating evidence or observations.

If not state policy, then there is a pattern of abuse that seems to be inculcated as part of your military's culture. We clearly had a lot of work to undo with our gung-ho yankee doodle dandies about appropriate conduct with locals.

You might too. The central concern, of course, is whether SWAT holds relevance to the here-and-now, not some moment in time isolated and receding as we write.

If SWAT, what might be the case in FATAville and it's ongoing operations hidden from the skeptical eyes of your local and the international press?

I AM concerned because, as a whole, the U.S. Army has found it VERY advantageous to have embedded reporters with our troops during combat operations. The good has far outweighed the bad and it seems you could use all the good P.R. that can be mustered...

...yet there's a clear reticence by your all-powerful military to embrace such. In light of the recent SWAT past and the even more recent BBC article as two examples, this subject holds relevance to Rah-e-Nijat.

I hope that you agree.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

" The military cannot simply explain the existence of these mass graves by alleging that the bodies were of militants buried by other militants. HRCP has knowledge of other versions to the contrary."

Why does the military account not explain the existence of mass graves? The Military has been consistent in pointing out mass graves dug by militants long before any of these accusations surfaced - during the assault on Peocher for example.

I believe the military has also pointed out that in some cases militants killed were buried in mass graves by advancing forces, since the area had been evacuated of residents and bodies could not be left ******* on the ground, nor was time going to be taken out for individual burials.

Whether endorsed or ordered as a matter of state policy, or not, is beside the point. Thematter is serious and, as yet, undetermined. Posts made here should be addressed to the HRCP as they've knowledge of other versions and could use the mitigating evidence or observations.

The claims of residents taking revenge have also been widely reported in the mainstream Pakistani press - if the HRCP is doing a fair evaluation, it can easily contact those journalists to determine what the situation is.

If not state policy, then there is a pattern of abuse that seems to be inculcated as part of your military's culture. We clearly had a lot of work to undo with our gung-ho yankee doodle dandies about appropriate conduct with locals.

I see no pattern of abuse here. There is so far an unsubstantiated allegation, and on the other hand a clear articulation of opposition to such practices by the PA, and plenty of plausible explanations to explain the mass graves and extra judicial killings.

You might too. The central concern, of course, is whether SWAT holds relevance to the here-and-now, not some moment in time isolated and receding as we write.

If SWAT, what might be the case in FATAville and it's ongoing operations hidden from the skeptical eyes of your local and the international press?

Swat was just as hidden from public eyes, and we see now that much of the concerns expressed over the PA's strategy have turned out to be unfounded.

We will only be able to get a clearer picture of the situation in SW when combat is over (and given the Taliban strategy of retreating deeper into SW and relatively low casualties it will likely take a long time), but till then the template of Swat is a positive one for the PA.

I AM concerned because, as a whole, the U.S. Army has found it VERY advantageous to have embedded reporters with our troops during combat operations. The good has far outweighed the bad and it seems you could use all the good P.R. that can be mustered...

...yet there's a clear reticence by your all-powerful military to embrace such. In light of the recent SWAT past and the even more recent BBC article as two examples, this subject holds relevance to Rah-e-Nijat.

I hope that you agree.

I don't agree- the message from embedded reporters can go either way, and given the hardship the Pakistani public is going through, both through terrorist violence and economic issues, the message from the front at least needs to be controlled and on point, lest the public gets disillusioned.

Short term accuracy on possible setbacks and problems is of little relevance so long as progress towards long term objectives is being achieved. I do not suggest this is the correct way for all nations, but given the peculiar climate in Pakistan, and the need for domestic support, I support this model for now.

 

[S-2]

"...the HRCP is doing a fair evaluation, it can easily contact those journalists to determine what the situation is."

I'd suggest that the HRCP has ALREADY done a fair evaluation and indicates that it has other versions. There's no indication that they haven't seeked out the testimony of others. Indeed they have knowledge of contrary versions.

They've asked for an independant inquiry. Is that too much? Why would you be uncomfortable with such. Is there no precedent for independant investigations? How about your national assembly? Do they hold any interest over affairs within your country affecting your citizens?

"I see no pattern of abuse here. There is so far an unsubstantiated allegation, and on the other hand a clear articulation of opposition to such practices by the PA, and plenty of plausible explanations to explain the mass graves and extra judicial killings."

O.k. I disagree as there's more than ONE allegation and they hardly appear unsubstantiated to a neutral eye.

Your government's behavior about the press from SWAT until now coupled with the coincidental occurrence of possible crimes then AND now suggests that they are bent on keeping a cloak over matters.

HRCP has done nothing more than plainly state they've allegations to the contrary and call for an independant inquiry. That seems reasonable but I do notice a reticence by everybody concerned to take it to that level.

Why is that?

No doubt your military will continue to stage-manage its news. Evidently you've placed blind trust as paramount in this time of crisis. Fair enough.

You're certainly not the first military to muzzle the press. I think that it's wrong and harms your army when I know that there's much good which comes from seeing soldiers in something other than a postured dog & pony show.

It's your country and you can handle the consequences I suppose. Evidently your ISPR presumes the consequences of access would be worse.

I wonder what they know or fear would arise from the press being with actual troops near the actual battles.

I suppose your army is just thinking of the danger to those journalists from such exposure.

Thank goodness for their concern if so.

 

[waraich66]

"Why US is using green card soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan..."

That's the SHORT line to citizenship.

You'd do it too if any young man found a reason to immigrate to Pakistan.

Mostly they look to LEAVE if possible. Some of our best soldiers are...sorry, WERE Pakistani.

Now they're red-blooded Yanks just like me. Or at least soon will be.

I know of at least two, a lieutenant and a captain, who died for our country. God bless their souls and may their families find some comfort in our deep appreciation for their loss.

Some here disparaged one of those men on this board. May their souls burn in hell.

Thanks.

I wish you could see your soldiers souls ,

Green cards and dollars cant defeat the mujahdeen sacrifice for their faith and home land , you know it very well,that is reason US failed to win hearts of Afghan's.

 

[iPhone]

"Once you treat us as an ally like UK, we will also deliver performance by killing every human within 50 kms of the Afghan border … the Ultimate scorched earth!!"

Once you devote your entire treasury and armed forces in the same manner that the U.K did in W.W.II perhaps we shall. To date you haven't.

Finally, we can do without your enthusiastic ifgenocidal approach, especially should your enthusiasm spill over to the afghan side of that border as I fear it might.

You used to post fair and sane posts but now you're just being a deuce. Genocide? common, dude PA's support for this operation is already hanging by a thread, the progress of this mission has slowed down because they are so cautious about loosing a single civilian life in collateral let alone a house or a village. And don't say there's a media blockage, no one knows, trust me people leaving the areas would have stories to tell of PA's wrong doing if there were any once they leave the area.

Second thing, you're questioning the moral and ethics of Pakistanis by mentioning some members on this board who've posted a "certain manner" of how to deal with the terrorists. Really, I mean really, you gonna bring in that? somebody venting on a computer keyboard which has nothing to do with reality but what's on their mind. There are numerous American message boards (AOL the top one that comes to my mind) where after 9/11 and during the Abu-Ghariab prison scandal there was some beautiful language used by the American about how the american soldiers should have treated the "desert donkeys".

But anyway this is not a mudslinging contest to see who is torturing who better or worse and who has the most sick and twisted thoughts in their heads. As human, we're all guilty of having these demons in us. Being an American doesn't mean you have transcended to a level where the rest of the world, or the third world or Pakistan are at sub-human level still torturing, maiming and committing genocide while Americans are well above and beyond this "evolutionary course of human action".

 

[iPhone]

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A Taliban spokesman has denied Pakistan's claims of battlefield victories in an offensive in tribal South Waziristan, saying the militants are drawing government soldiers into a trap.
Azam Tariq says the militants are purposefully withdrawing from some areas to bring government soldiers further into Taliban territory.
He said in a telephone call Tuesday with The Associated Press that "We are prepared for a long war."

Tariq also denied army claims that dozens of militants have been killed, saying only 11 have died so far.

In mid-October, the Pakistani government launched an offensive in the South Waziristan tribal region, viewed as the main stronghold in the country of both the Taliban and al-Qaida. The offensive has drawn retaliatory militant attacks across Pakistan.

The Associated Press: Pakistan Taliban: 'We are prepared for a long war'

absolutely, and he has to make public his trap strategy.

 

[Elmo]

We are openly confronting our mistakes. You appear more inclined to sweep under the rug. I know that HRCP feels this way.

Thanks for YOUR concern to this pressing matter of basic human dignity for your own citizens.

Ditto that...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"...the HRCP is doing a fair evaluation, it can easily contact those journalists to determine what the situation is."

I'd suggest that the HRCP has ALREADY done a fair evaluation and indicates that it has other versions. There's no indication that they haven't seeked out the testimony of others. Indeed they have knowledge of contrary versions.

Perhaps they do, and perhaps those versions point to isolated cases, such as those seen in the US military, which in conjunction with a lot of other circumstantial evidence is being used to unfairly paint the extra-judicial killings and mass graves (all of which have other explanations) as some sort of institutional policy by the Army.

None of the information presented by the HRCP publicly offers any evidence beyond isolated cases - the rest of their allegations are extrapolations based on those few cases.

And as I pointed out earlier:

1. Several accounts in the Pakistani press and on this forum have pointed out that revenge killings by the locals have taken place.

2. Mass graves were pointed out by the PA as having been dug by the militants at the start of the Swat operation, long before any of these accusations came about.

3. The PA also pointed out that it had dug mass graves to bury large numbers of killed militants in the CZ since there were no residents left and single burials were not feasible.

4. The PA has actually arrested thousands (or over a thousand, can't remember exactly) of suspected Taliban. There would be a lot more extrajudicial killings if this was the preferred means of 'disposal' by the PA.

They've asked for an independant inquiry. Is that too much? Why would you be uncomfortable with such. Is there no precedent for independant investigations? How about your national assembly? Do they hold any interest over affairs within your country affecting your citizens?

An independent inquiry by the GoP? Surely not international agencies - the US herslef does not allow her soldiers to be tried by international courts AFAIK.

And yes there is a precedent for independent investigations of the Army and government, as illustrated by the Hamood-ur-Rehman commission (declassified under Musharraf's regime), which had a scathing indictment of the military and political leadership in East Pakistan after an extremely comprehensive review of the people involved and communications and documentation from both the civilian and military side. It also ended up debunking the outrageous genocide and millions killed claims, placing the death toll at tens of thousands, based on all available evidence at least.

So I do see worth in such an investigation, though I do not see any justification for it at this point. If there is justification, the GoP can be petitioned, the case in favor of such an investigation made, and if a valid case, perhaps a commission to investigate can be appointed.

O.k. I disagree as there's more than ONE allegation and they hardly appear unsubstantiated to a neutral eye.

Even a handful of cases would not be proof of an institutional policy of pursuing extra judicial killings, and there are far more accounts indicating extra judicial killings by local residents than there are of blaming the Army.

Your government's behavior about the press from SWAT until now coupled with the coincidental occurrence of possible crimes then AND now suggests that they are bent on keeping a cloak over matters.

The extra judicial killings started after the people of Swat returned, and their return meant that any chance of keeping a lid on events in Swat ended as well. So in the case of the extra judicial killings at least, the Press should not have issues with reporting on them, and they have - that is where all the accounts from local residents suggesting locals out for vengeance are committing them come from.

HRCP has done nothing more than plainly state they've allegations to the contrary and call for an independant inquiry. That seems reasonable but I do notice a reticence by everybody concerned to take it to that level.

Why is that?

As I pointed out above, I have no issue per se with an independent inquiry, since there is precedent for it, but such a request should be vetted by the GoP to determine whether it requires an inquiry or not - can't go off on wild goose chases every time someone thinks something is amiss.

No doubt your military will continue to stage-manage its news. Evidently you've placed blind trust as paramount in this time of crisis. Fair enough.

You're certainly not the first military to muzzle the press. I think that it's wrong and harms your army when I know that there's much good which comes from seeing soldiers in something other than a postured dog & pony show.

It's your country and you can handle the consequences I suppose. Evidently your ISPR presumes the consequences of access would be worse.

I wonder what they know or fear would arise from the press being with actual troops near the actual battles.

I suppose your army is just thinking of the danger to those journalists from such exposure.

Thank goodness for their concern if so.

I have explained my reasons for why I think the military should keep control over the flow of information from the CZ - people like Bill Roggio who pounce on every bit of negative information and distort it to push a particular agenda cement my belief that information related to short term objectives failures/successes should be controlled to avoid out of context reporting and dissemblance that we often see in the Western and Pakistani media.

With the civilian population out of the region, this is purely a military battle for now, and I fail to see what advantages an embedded journalist would bring. The Army is doing a decent job getting images, reports and video out, and only the highly informed and interested readers are going to nitpick over it - for a large number of Pakistanis these images and reports convey success and pride, and hopefully perpetuate and strengthen public support for the operation in Waziristan.

Once active combat to retake the majority of the territory is over, and citizens can return, the importance of a free press becomes paramount again. Then we do need independent views to obtain information about the extent of reconstruction, aid needed, aid delivered, local sentiment etc. .... and yes, coverage of any 'extra judicial killings'.

 

[pakdefender]

Sararogha secured; 21 militants killed

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Sararogha secured; 21 militants killed

Azam Tariq says the militants are purposefully withdrawing from some areas to bring government soldiers further into Taliban territory.

This is an implicit acknowledgement of defeat.

Before the start of operations these fags were saying 'Army should not enter Waziristan or else' now after getting kicked out from their caves and *** holes they are 'purposefully' withdrawing , what a load of crap.

The Army should ship its pre-fab bunkers made by KRL and place them on the flanks of all routes , hillokcs and 'kacha' tracks taken back from the TTP mules. In these they should place the MG-3s with provision of night vision for those manning the posts.

This simple arrangment proved suprebly effective in shredding indians in kargil and the same tactic can be employed in the hilly terrain of Waziristan.

Keep the heights and slice and dice from the flanks anything that is unrecognized.

On top of this the Airforce and Army aviation should keep pouding any suspected areas of terrorist activity.

 

[Barrett]

wow we see the Americans talking about Human rights and War crimes.... Why is it that you only see something when done by others .... Hasn't abu-ghraib and guantanamo brought enough disgrace or have you become shameless due to godlessness ?

Why do you forget Hiroshima & Nagasaki or Vietnam or the atrocities in Somalia. How about Iraq? What about the time when your Weapons kept flowing into Israel when they were bombing Schools and Mosques in Beirut.
After the failure in Iraq and defeat at the hands of cattle grazers in Afghanistan it surely is the right time for you to raise human rights issues.
Now we will learn about Human Rights from the biggest tyrant in the history of man kind.

 

[Solomon2]

Why is it that you only see something when done by others .... Hasn't abu-ghraib and guantanamo brought enough disgrace or have you become shameless due to godlessness ?

Do thoughts of Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, Hiroshima and the godlessness of others bring comfort to you as your country continues to suffer?

 

[S-2]

Perhaps you endorse the killing of every single human being within 50km of the afghan border but not I.

Might try screwing your thinking cap on a bit tighter. I won't be apologizing to you.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

"I have explained my reasons for why I think the military should keep control over the flow of information from the CZ - people like Bill Roggio who pounce on every bit of negative information and distort it to push a particular agenda cement my belief that information related to short term objectives failures/successes should be controlled to avoid out of context reporting and dissemblance that we often see in the Western and Pakistani media."

I see. A BLOG has so intimidated you that you fear the entire western and Pakistani press. An "A" for your honesty but that would not seem a basis for such an overarching decision. Clearly Mr. Roggio can be denied press credentials by somebody like you within ISPR. Why must that include the rest of mankind's fourth estate?

Well, control away and reap more of the harvest from such a dubious slant but it goes far to explain your tap-dancing on an independant investigation within Pakistan. Naturally I, btw, presume you've qualified investigators to handle such internally and nowhere did I suggest that this yet deserves the attention of any internat'l body.

Hmmm...never imagined you to be somebody who'd stage-manage information until today. I can easily see your propensity to such now.

I can only hope you ABANDON such a position before it blowsback upon you. More than ever, your military's operations appear to need scrutiny from somebody other than the ISPR if you are to be any indication.

 

[pakdefender]

Pak army storms Taliban stronghold: military

Zindabad Meray Pak Fauj kay Shero! Zindabad!

Salam Afwaj e Pakistan kay liyay

Security forces have commenced sanitisation of Sararogha," the military announced in a statement

Nice! 'sanitisation of Sararogha'

These terrorists have killed hunders of Pakistanis , desecrated their dead bodies and made vidoes of their unholy acts , they should not be given any respite.

Pak army storms Taliban stronghold: military

There is no turning back , this is will be a FIGHT TO THE FINISH!!!! and finish we shall the last remaining mules of TTP!

 

[iPhone]

Do thoughts of Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, Hiroshima and the godlessness of others bring comfort to you as your country continues to suffer?

better question is, does accusing others for crimes they did not commit hide your own crimes against humanity?