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Operation Rah-e-Nijat (South Waziristan)

Taimikhan

“”Javed, told you before also, if you don't know about anything then don't poke your nose in it as it makes you look bad. Discuss about the things that you know about””.

I I don’t know much about the Army. This forum is a great learning opportunity for me, to learn pearls of wisdom from all round experts like your good self.

Just a few days ago you were insisting that Divisions strength is only about 7200 personnel. My “naïve” assessment was between 12,000-16,000 depending on the mission (includes TO&E, terrain, opponent formations and logistics tail). Then you had accused me of “not knowing anything”.

Now you are comfortable with a figure of 28,000; which in my naïve assessment is a far cry from 7200.

I believe you have to read my last post again, i am not comfortable with the 28,000 figure and said so that the division is not at the 28,000 figure deployed along LoC. A division can never reach the 28,000 figure until and unless the standard structure of a formation is changed, nor is there a division of 28,000 anywhere in Pakistan for the time being. There is no problem is learning on this forum, but as I had given you in detail the break up of formations in our previous conversation and you had never mentioned that "My “naïve” assessment was between 12,000-16,000 depending on the mission (includes TO&E, terrain, opponent formations and logistics tail). Then you had accused me of “not knowing anything”, plz revisit your & mine previous posts and see what conversation in reality hat happened. And what total i had given to you by adding the support formations and even the extra reserve formations. And as for my saying of not poking it was pointing to your comments to Elmo to tell me about the 28,000 div strength before you even got the figure confirmed yourself that was it right or wrong.
 
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"Unconventional warfare is against insurgencies, that are more political in nature, that aim to subvert the government etc etc."

I didn't note the specific reference that U.W. is against insurgencies. In fact, it could, itself, be the product of an insurgency or employed to induce the same.

Further, the notion that U.W. is against (or for) insurgencies ignores the use of unconventional warfare in pursuit of national objectives defined within a conventional warfare model.

U.S. Special Forces based in Bad Tolz, West Germany very definitely possessed operational intent inside Yugoslavia as well as other eastern European nations were WARSAW PACT and N.A.T.O. to engage in battle. Their objectives would be to develop and assist indigenous nationalist movements who might be able to contribute a corrosive erosion to rear area operations as conducted by WARSAW PACT forces.

Certainly, U.S. special forces and para-military types (C.I.A.), to use a second example, were heavily engaged in unconventional warfare against the taliban. While their near-term objectives were political (establish liaison with N.A. forces), the overarching objective was to lay the foundation for a very systematic U.S.A.F. air campaign which used extremely conventional means to deliver the coup de grace.

U.W. is, in the end, a method of combat. No more.
 
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"US has thus far failed abjectly to control Afghanistan."

What does this pointless departure have to do with anything?

It would be like me saying that Pakistan has thus far failed abjectly to control Pakistan...whoops!:eek:

Sorry. That's really not quite the same thing, is it?

Try to stay on topic, if possible. I was responding to Elmo's assertion about U.W. as part of Rah-e-Nijat. YOU were looking to troll.

That's also really not quite the same thing either, is it?

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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A protracted war?

Much has been written about how and why Waziristan and Afghanistan turned into valleys of death for invaders. In 1920 a British brigade was decimated in Waziristan losing 400 soldiers including 28 British and 15 Indian officers.

Since 9/11 the Pakistan Army has made several forays into Waziristan but each time it failed to achieve its objectives. In December 1979 the Soviets occupied Afghanistan. But it didn’t take them long to realise that it was far more difficult to withdraw than it was to come in.

Then the Americans came and occupied Afghanistan. Eight years on they too have discovered this cardinal truth. History supports much of what has been written. Pakistan has taken a fateful decision; it has chosen to defy history. After months of the softening up of targets, the ground operation began this month. The strategy employed seeks to capture the ‘critical space’ of the guerrillas in the triangle formed by Makeen-Ladha-Sararogha by advancing on it from three directions, then undertaking mopping-up operations.

This strategy may well succeed depending on what is perceived as success. Would it be the occupation of spaces under Mehsud control? Or would it be the elimination of Hakeemullah’s TTP? In a conventional war occupation of enemy territory constitutes success; in counter-insurgency, elimination. Unless the occupation of TTP spaces also leads to their elimination, the army would inevitably be drawn into a protracted guerrilla war of the kind that the Soviets fought and lost, and the Americans are fighting and losing.

Pakistan cannot afford a protracted war for a number of reasons. One, it would signify failure of Rah-i-Nijat and this would plunge the people into despair; two, the army’s image would take a nosedive; three, the guerrillas would be seen as larger-than-life fighters; four, it would have an adverse effect on the soldiers in the same way a protracted guerrilla war had on American soldiers in Vietnam, Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan, Indian soldiers in Indian-administered Kashmir, and is having on American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The fifth reason is that Pakhtun soldiers could come under pressure in the same way as did Bengali soldiers, following the launch of army operation in East Pakistan in March 1971; six, it could encourage Mullah Nazir and Gul Bahadur to join the war on the side of the guerrillas; seven, it would have a detrimental effect on the country’s fragile economy which would invariably bring the people under greater pressure; eight, it would provide opportunities to those powers who do not wish Pakistan well to exploit its tribulations with impunity.

Time and space are of the essence for an army, both in a conventional and unconventional war. For the guerrillas they are not as they keep moving from one location to another, striking not one large blow but a number of small blows in different directions to make the army bleed from a thousand cuts; they avoid pitched battles unless the terrain favours them. Otherwise they give away space by design to fight another day. This is what their counterparts in Afghanistan did when thousands of US Marines landed in Helmand River valley in a pre-dawn assault recently. The guerrillas simply withdrew into the mountains, then returned to devastate the invaders with hit-and-run attacks that forced Gen McChrystal to demand 40,000 more troops or else face defeat within a year.

The only spatial situation the guerrillas fear is when they are denied access to their safe havens in the mountains and areas adjoining the theatre, and when they know that after hitting, they cannot run. A situation such as this creates a choking effect. If the Soviets had blocked the Durand Line on their side to prevent cross-border movement, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan would have been isolated from their handlers and logistics based in Pakistan. The Soviet forces had become victims of their general staff’s lack of strategic vision.

The Americans, too, made the same mistake. If they too had secured the Durand Line on their side prior to launching their air-bombing campaign, the Taliban fighters, tormenting them for the last eight years, would not have been able to slip away into Pakistan. Instead of correcting their strategy, they have chosen to blame Pakistan for their failure. The lack of the Pentagon’s strategic vision has not only caused grievous pain to the American people and their servicemen and women, it has caused greater pain to the Pakistani people and their servicemen.

It remains to be seen whether the strategy under which the ground operation of Rah-i-Nijat was launched will succeed in creating a situation where the guerrillas are subjected to progressive choking and elimination. The advance from three directions is reminiscent of the ‘advance to contact’ operation of a conventional war. It is a set piece and slow operation, hence predictable, and any strategy or tactics that can be predicted can be countered.

In an unconventional war, it is the army’s unconventional strategy that usually succeeds as it carries the all-important element of surprise. Thus, one such strategy, though risky, as all such strategies are, comes close to meeting this requirement. Under it the theatre of operations is isolated during the preparatory phase to prevent the guerrillas from making ingress into it or exit from it.

The ground operation is then opened by seizing the heights that dominate Makeen, Ladha and Sararogha by heliborne troops under suppressive fire by gunships, artillery and F-16s. In Phase 2, waves of helicopters land more troops while the force employed to isolate the theatre moves forward to tighten the noose. In Phase 3, while more troops are landed, Makeen, Ladha and Sararogha are attacked. In Phase 4, the troops attack outwards to tighten the noose in conjunction with the troops of the isolating force moving inwards. A stage is then reached where the noose is finally tightened.

This strategy is premised on the induction of at least two more infantry divisions and 100 troop carrying helicopters (from the US as they too have a stake in this operation). When viewed against the result to be achieved, the forces taking part in Rah-i-Nijat are insufficient. This is the last battle. If it is lost, a protracted war would ensue, the consequences of which would be disastrous for the country.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | A protracted war?
 
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This will be long term gurrilla war .US and Russia both defeated.I think PA need more weapons and time to defeat enemy
 
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The one that has been engulfing my country

very interesting i seem to remember otherwise from your previous posts!

I know exactly which post you are referring to here. Surprising that you remember it after all these months (i take the baba bit back here).

Fatman... i am patriotic, and my concern for the problems plaguing my country don't end here at the forum. The forum is a very lil part of my life. I don't like to carry a banner or a badge on my shirt about my love for my country. There is too much of it going on here all the time in any case. I leave it for the others to do.


How come you never ever take part in any discussion here besides a one liner here or there?
 
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The operation is going very well , we need to up the kill rate and tear up these rag heads at a faster pace.

We havent seen any 'guerilla warfare' yet , all we are seeing are some cowardly terrorist attaks in the cities killing civilians

There is NO turning back now , GO FORWARD PAK ARMY and END the reign of terror of the enemies of Pakistan.

DONT let the Ghost of East Pakistan be a show stopper. Allah jo karta ha uss hi mein behtari huti ha!
 
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ISPR Update - 2 November 2009
No 455/2009-ISPR Dated: November 2, 2009
Rawalpindi - November 2, 2009:



1. South Waziristan - Operation Rah-e-Nijat

a. In last 24 hours, 12 terrorists have been killed. Security forces losses are 6 injured. Details of operations are as follows:-

(1) On Jandola – Sararogha Axis.

a. Security forces are extending their perimeter of security and closing in towards Sararogha. Expansion of positions held on the ridges from different directions towards Sararogha is in progress.

b. Sporadic Mortar and Small Arms fire is being received by security forces from different areas of the town.

c. During exchange of fire with terrorists 4 terrorists have been killed while 6 soldiers got injured.

(2) On Shakai - Kaniguram Axis

a. House to house search and clearance of compounds are being undertaken at Kunniguram town. Hundred percent of the town has been cleared and secured. During search operation huge quantity of arms and ammunition and explosives have been recovered.

b. Security forces conducted search operation in areas Shin Sar and Guru Sar and recovered 1000 rounds of SMG.

c. Security forces secured point 7121 and Mangora Sar. During engagements 8 terrorists have been killed.

(3) On Razmak- Makeen Axis

a. Security forces are consolidating their positions on the ridges along road Razmak - Makeen.

b. The important village of China just adjacent to Makeen has been secured.

c. Huge cache of arms and ammunition have been recovered from different huts, caves and compounds.

d. Security forces neutralized 20 IEDs during clearance of China.

e. Security forces also secured Kam Narakai located 2 kilometers west of China village and recovered huge cache of ammunition.

f. Since the commencement of Operation Rah-e-Nijat on 17 October 2009 to date, following weapons, ammunition and equipment has been recovered from different areas along all three axes (details at the end).

2. Swat - Malakand - Operation Rah-e-Rast

a. In last 24 hours, 22 suspects have been apprehended from different areas of Swat and 2 terrorists have voluntarily surrendered.

b. During search operation at Piochar, a tunnel has been discovered with 20 APM mines, 2 Kilograms explosive, 4 bottles of liquid chemicals, 250 grams gun powder, 2 directional mines and 1 x detonator box.

c. During search operation at Muraday 7 kilometers north east of Piochar, 7 SMGs, 1x rifle G-3, 1 x rifle 7 mm, 2 x rifles 303 mm and plenty of ammunition of different calibers has been recovered.

d. During search operation at Sahdarra, 1 kilometer north of Roringar, 42 SMGs with 1200 rounds and 41 rifles 7 mm have been recovered.

e. During search operation in Derai near Kanju, 1 terrorist apprehended and following recovered.

(i) 3 explosive filled cylinders

(ii) 1 x IED

(iii) 11 x rounds of 130 mm including 3 prepared IEDs

(iv) 30 kilograms explosive

(v) 30 kilograms chemical

(vi) 20 x rockets of RPG-7

(vii) 21 x grenades

(viii) 2 x rounds of 60 mm mortar

(ix) 800 rounds of Kalashnikovs


3. Relief Activities

a. 7,272 cash cards have been distributed amongst the displaced families of Waziristan.

b. Relief items including winter clothing for the displaced families of Waziristan has been sent by Army to D I Khan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Geo reporting: During latest ISPR release DG has mentioned capture of Indian medical supplies, weaponry and literature, from Waziristaan. They're also saying that Indian foreign office has been made aware. Qamar uz zaaman Kaira said they have concrete proof and the issue will be raised.
Anyway one know of this or posted some where?
 
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Geo reporting: During latest ISPR release DG has mentioned capture of Indian medical supplies, weaponry and literature, from Waziristaan. They're also saying that Indian foreign office has been made aware. Qamar uz zaaman Kaira said they have concrete proof and the issue will be raised.
Anyway one know of this or posted some where?

Army finds proof of Indian involvement in South Waziristan: DG ISPR

ISLAMABAD, Nov 2 (APP): The security forces have found substantial evidence of Indian involvement for assisting terrorists in South Waziristan Agency, Director General ISPR Major General Athar Abass said. “Indian literature and weapons under the use of terrorists have been recovered from South Waziristan and more evidence is being gathered,” he said addressing a joint media briefing on Operation Rah e Nijat here Monday.

Minister for Information and Broadcasting Qamar Zaman Kaira, Secretary Information Suhail Mansoor and Principal Information Officer Ch. Rashid Ahmed were also present.
“We have sent all the proves of Indian involvement to the Foreign Office for their onward presentation at the appropriate forum,” he said.
Director General ISPR said that the security forces have given big surprise to the terrorists in South Waziristan thus achieving major successes. “The terrorists are in a state of shock and surprise due to the valour and bravery shown by the security forces personnel during the operation,” he said.
He said the security forces fully enjoy the sustained support of the whole nation and the terrorists are on the run.
Major General Athar Abbas said the forces have taken over complete control of terrorists stronghold of Kunniguram town and village Karama near Sararogha. He said these places were strongholds of Uzbek origin terrorists.
During the clearance operation, he said the terrorists suffered heavy causality.
Giving details of the operation, he said 12 terrorists were killed during last 24 hours while 6 personnel of security forces losses sustained injuries.
He said security forces are extending their perimeter of security and closing in towards Sararogha. Expansion of positions held on the ridges from different directions towards Sararogha is in progress.
Sporadic Mortar and Small Arms fire is being received by security forces from different areas of the town.
During exchange of fire with terrorists 4 terrorists have been killed while 6 soldiers got injured.
On Shakai - Kaniguram Axis, he said house to house search and clearance of compounds are being undertaken at Kunniguram town which has been cleared and secured to 100 % by security forces. During search operation huge quantity of arms and ammunition and explosives was recovered. Besides, he said five truckloads of arms and ammunition have also been recovered.
Security forces conducted search operation in areas Shin Sar and Guru Sar and recovered 1000 rounds of SMG.
Security forces secured point 7121 and Mangora Sar. During the engagements 8 terrorists were killed.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Army finds proof of Indian involvement in South Waziristan: DG ISPR
 
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The operation is going very well , we need to up the kill rate and tear up these rag heads at a faster pace.

We havent seen any 'guerilla warfare' yet , all we are seeing are some cowardly terrorist attaks in the cities killing civilians

There is NO turning back now , GO FORWARD PAK ARMY and END the reign of terror of the enemies of Pakistan.

DONT let the Ghost of East Pakistan be a show stopper. Allah jo karta ha uss hi mein behtari huti ha!

PA movement is very slow not like swat , it means PA is facing gurrilla tactics, PA need to adopt different strategy with support of local tribes
 
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Taimikhan

“”The only spatial situation the guerrillas fear is when they are denied access to their safe havens in the mountains and areas adjoining the theatre, and when they know that after hitting, they cannot run. A situation such as this creates a choking effect. If the Soviets had blocked the Durand Line on their side to prevent cross-border movement, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan would have been isolated from their handlers and logistics based in Pakistan. The Soviet forces had become victims of their general staff’s lack of strategic vision””.

Another example of my crass naivety; I find the above para worth its weight in gold.

A guerrilla movement that relies too heavily on terrain based Safe havens eventually loses out. Real safe haven is in the minds and hearts of population at large. In the context of TTP it’s the general public in FATA and Swat. A greater safe haven is the 35% of Pakistan’s general population that is living below the poverty line, i.e. about US$ 1 / day. Groaning poverty, malnutrition and Somalia like social development index has created a silent anti-establishment wave within the masses. Our convicted felon president, the government machinery and the Military Top brass are all bracketed together as the 2% privileged class commanding a great share of the resources. When Hillary Clinton questions the allocation and use of the US$ 300 m to the IDP’s of Swat operation, millions of fingers point to the ruling Political and Military leadership.

Army is losing the war in the hearts and minds of the people; it’s not just “Mehsuds”, Swat and Khyber too are brimming with hatred and humiliation. Mainstream Pakistan does not feel the pain of the IDP’s primarily due to their ethnic background.

No matter how much you scare the general masses about the TTP menace, the “bad guys” are identified as a genuine resistance.

A bloated and corrupt security apparatus including police, FIA, IB and even ISI / MI units in close contact with the society have been thoroughly corrupted. They know very well what the ruling class is making out of the US war on Terror. Nobody is exactly keen to lay down his life for Rs 6000.

The MAIN PROBLEM is that we have volunteered to fight the American War on Desi Prices, very very cheap. Americans found it cheaper to bribe a few politicians and a few Generals rather than making a serious war investment in Pakistan. From about US$ 7 b / year during Musharraf’s time the real cost of war has now ballooned to about US$ 11 b / year. We are giving a 90% discount on our COSTS just to enjoy a pat on the shoulder, and to hear praises from a few White “dignitaries”.

By the way, the Soviets were not exactly stupid. They did their best to stem the flow of logistics and to kill the “mujahedeen bases”. Soviets had substantial garrisons in Wakhan, Takhar, Asadabad, Kameh / Jalalabad, Khost, Qamruddin karez, Chaman. Spitnatz was pretty much active. By 1985 they had sealed the bleeding ulcer of Panjsher by arriving at a tacit truce with Ahmed Shah Masud. Eventually they became hopelessly dependent on Air Power; Stinger made a real difference. USA, Pakistan and the western world kept the logistics lifeline, the limitation being the Mujahedeen to distribute the equipment and supplies.
 
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"The MAIN PROBLEM is that we have volunteered to fight the American War on Desi Prices, very very cheap. "

You know, this bickering between two countries who should be allies seems really pointless. The U.S. and Britain did not have such issues, not even when the U.K. had sold its dollar assets and the U.S. demanded most of Britain's gold as security. What mattered was the fight. The Brits, including Indian (and Pakistani) troops fought unreservedly in the common cause and the U.S. responded with total support.

However, it seems that unlike the Brits today's Pakistanis can't decide where their loyalties are. Do they see themselves as fighting in the cause of freedom, as mercenaries whose loyalties are for sale, or as secret enemies of the U.S. out to milk its citizens for everything they've got, or maybe a little of all of the above?
 
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"...to hear praises from a few White “dignitaries”. "

Ah, your racist slip is showing again, dear. Do your leaders turn their ears as eagerly to hear the praise from our president as well? Probably not, eh?

I think you may be out of your depth...

...again. Tacky too. Can you watch playing the race card so easily henceforth?

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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taimikhan

ISLAMABAD, Nov 2 (APP): The security forces have found substantial evidence of Indian involvement for assisting terrorists in South Waziristan Agency, Director General ISPR Major General Athar Abass said. “Indian literature and weapons under the use of terrorists have been recovered from South Waziristan and more evidence is being gathered,” he said addressing a joint media briefing on Operation Rah e Nijat here Monday.

Another Dog and Pony show … Silly Propaganda to arouse the feelings of mainstream Pakistan. .

This is one of the few times in history when Pakistani Government, India and the USA have convergent interests. South Waziristan, Swat and all other FATA operations have the full backing of the US and India.

1. If India was supporting TTP, it would not have allowed Pak Army to move 1/3rd of its combat strength to fight the US War. It is so easy for them to create tensions. They did not try an active deployment even after the Bombay carnage.
2. Why is our Government still begging India to start a composite dialog?
3. With an active logistics lifeline from any nation state including India, PA would not have been able to rack in impressive victories. The bad guys did’nt have to rely on AK-47’s, things would have been a lot more sophisticated.
 
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