Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ?

[MastanKhan]

I voted no for the following reasons,

1. We would need to invest in infrastructure for the new platform, just because we have been operating Mirage platform does not mean they are all the same.

2. We should rather spend the same amount of money to increase our fleet of JF-17's and/or to improve that platform because in the longer run that would be much better investment for us than those french mirages with certain air time on airframe.

Sir,

What if that old system is 10 years ahead of the best JF17 / J10 you are going to get in batch 2 of JF 17 and J10's in tyhe next couple of years---and also what if the system is more advanced than what you already have---what then.

I would rather have FC-20/J-11 than M09.

Pakistan already has 50 Jf-17. Pakistan need to increase the JF-17 block 2 production from 10 planes to 25 planes per year.

Sir,

What do you understand of the significance of a multiplier effect of a technically superior air dominance fighter aircraft over lesser competence aircraft.

Does that word mean anything to paks.

 

[Donatello]

Sir,

What if that old system is 10 years ahead of the best JF17 / J10 you are going to get in batch 2 of JF 17 and J10's in tyhe next couple of years---and also what if the system is more advanced than what you already have---what then.




Sir,

What do you understand of the significance of a multiplier effect of a technically superior air dominance fighter aircraft over lesser competence aircraft.

Does that word mean anything to paks.

Sir,

This is a debate. We can discuss why Mirage 2000 would be better or not. In my view, the Radar on Mirage 2000-5 (the upgraded one) is not that superior to JF-17's KLJ-7. About same range, same tracking capabilities and same number of modes. Yes, Mirage 2000 would have opened up the French BVR/WVR missiles to PAF, but does PAF really need them since it already has diversified inventory?

We know that JF-17s RWR/ECM is of European origin anyway.

Please add some technical details of Mirage 2000-5 here and let's compare with JF-17. Mirage 2000 being 10 years ahead, that's a very optimistic view from your side.

 

[HAIDER]

Well, traditionally when any country has choice to buy or upgrade any weapon , they always go for something which is not in their rival list. So, in other words India already has this plane they already know the tactical in and out of this airframe. Plus, I think its all together 60 frames . So , again even its free it very costly.
Plus, Pakistan has open source frames of JF17 and J10, where a team of Pakistani engineer were working on J10 modification with Chinese since many years ( a team of AE was dispatched by Musharraf and been working with Chinese since then).

 

[Basel]

Only until the Rafale deal is 'locked in'....then India can't do anything...if it will, the IAF will be unhappy....if the Rafale tender slows because India wants to play cry baby on Mirages being sold to Pakistan.
UAE and Saudis too are negotiating Rafale, the French would be in a catch 22. We can also have Saudis buy them and once India is locked, we can buy from them.
The question was the Mirage's 'viability for PAF' under current situation.

Why would Pakistan go for Rafale if Saudis & UAE are ready to finance some defense deal for Pakistan than EF-2000 will be PAFs first choice for 4.5+ gen fighter because KSA is operating them in numbers and also after having new / MLUED F-16s along with JF-17s PAF need a multirole fighter with strong air dominance capabilities which EF-2000 provides better in South Asian air warfare scenario for PAF, because it will have to play MKI's role for Pakistan whereas IAFs Rafales will not be initially use for air dominance.

 

[Kompromat]

Why would Pakistan go for Rafale if Saudis & UAE are ready to finance some defense deal for Pakistan than EF-2000 will be PAFs first choice for 4.5+ gen fighter because KSA is operating them in numbers and also after having new / MLUED F-16s along with JF-17s PAF need a multirole fighter with strong air dominance capabilities which EF-2000 provides better in South Asian air warfare scenario for PAF, because it will have to play MKI's role for Pakistan whereas IAFs Rafales will not be initially use for air dominance.

Thats not what i've said.

If UAE can agree at a throw away cost, we can have Saudi AF buy these Mirages, have them upgraded paid for by Pakistan and once India is locked in the Rafale contract, we can pick the Mirages from KSA.

There are two major issues.

* Does PAF want them
* Price the UAE would want from us if PAF throws in its hat.

 

[jupiter2007]

Yes, I agree there are some major concerns even if UAE can sell those on the dirt cheap price.

1) Does PAF want these?
2) Money - Pakistan is broke, can Pakistan afford these?
3) Spares?? Will France provide the spares? specially during any conflict with India?
4) upgrade/maintenance cost compare to Mirage III/V?
5) M09 superior fighter compare to Jf-17 block2 ?

Mirage III/V will be phased out in next 6 years. India already know the capabilities of the Mirage fighters. Do we need more Mirage?

 

[Chak Bamu]

No to M2K
Yes to J10 / FC20

If there is no (or little) tech transfer, there is no point in spending a ton of cash.

With M2K, we get no tech transfer. Our money would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Zarvan]

No to M2K
Yes to J10 / FC20

If there is no (or little) tech transfer, there is no point in spending a ton of cash.

With M2K, we get no tech transfer. Our money would be better spent elsewhere.

I am for them if they come almost free or with very little price if not than better go for J-10 B and at least order few of them and than also try to improve our economy

 

[bc040400065]

Well people Should know that Mirage 3/5 operating cost is much more than M2k-9 for sure. Ask PAF how they are flying those almost 50 years old airframes. And As i read it PAF is desperate to retire these old mirages because they are really expensive to maintain. So May be If they are offered at low price then may be PAF might go for it and leave the J10 option. Because still J10 have engine issue and PAF is reluctant to buy it with Russian engine.

 

[Pinnacle]

M09 are superior to your F 16 bk 52
JF17 and Mirage are in different class; Chinese BVR is no match for French weapon package in M09

but big issues are:
1. will french agree to transfer these Mirages to PAF? i think no, atleast untill they do not trap india in rafale deal.
2. is paf willing to get them? again there is NO, because IAF has tons of experience with M2K.
3. will UAE would give the mirages at throw away cost? No, believe me these planes would be very expensive around $30-40mn including weapons package. spares would be another issue.

 

[Basel]

Thats not what i've said.
If UAE can agree at a throw away cost, we can have Saudi AF buy these Mirages, have them upgraded paid for by Pakistan and once India is locked in the Rafale contract, we can pick the Mirages from KSA.
There are two major issues.
* Does PAF want them
* Price the UAE would want from us if PAF throws in its hat.

What I want to said is that, if KSA is ready to finance a deal as you mentioned in your post, then why we ask KSA to purchase old used M2Ks instead we can request them to arrange agreement & finance for purchase of at lease 3 squadren of EF-2000 which is a need of today for PAF.

 

[Kompromat]

@Basel

They won't finance them. We'll pay them to buy them off and keep them in KSA till India is locked in a contract.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Indians are not idiots.

KSA is not our 'sugar daddy'. If we can not manage by ourselves, we need not obsess about what our friends can do for us. With China, it is a geo-strategic partnership and they gain regional leverage by co-development. If we could envisage a non-Iran centered symbiotic relation with KSA then good for us BOTH. If not, then we must not complain about being treated unfairly.

 

[Zarvan]

Indians are not idiots.

KSA is not our 'sugar daddy'. If we can not manage by ourselves, we need not obsess about what our friends can do for us. With China, it is a geo-strategic partnership and they gain regional leverage by co-development. If we could envisage a non-Iran centered symbiotic relation with KSA then good for us BOTH. If not, then we must not complain about being treated unfairly.

Sir if we ask KSA they will do it but right now we are not asking Sir other wise Saudi Arabia these days is quite good at spending money specially after getting pissed of with USA but problem with EF is Euorpeans will never sell to us and even if they do any problem in future can result in shortage of spare parts for us so better we stick to J-10 B or C and JF-17 BLOCK II and if get money from some where may go for J-11 B to Navy but first two are must

 

[sancho]

There are two major issues.

* Does PAF want them
* Price the UAE would want from us if PAF throws in its hat.

Swiss air force wanted EF and Rafale, but ended up with Gripen, why? Because the country can't afford more. Same goes for Brazil, so it doesn't matter what an air force wants, the first question is always, can the country afford it?
Also important is the question when this M2Ks could be available for PAF, since they can't be procured unless the UAE has replacements available. So would M2K-9 make sense if they come only by 2018?