Open Debate | Ideal direction of Pak-Afghan relations.

[wiseone2]

How and Why would PA go after OBL prior to 9/11? You wanted PA to find and kill OBL in Afghanistan in the 90s? This makes no sense at all, especially considering the username you have chosen for yourself.
And yes that assumption is correct as these problems were not as prevalent before the 90s, and only got to this worse state after joining the afghan war in the 80s and then again in 2001.
PS. F16s were all paid by Pakistan. CSF is for supporting PAs operations in FATA, providing security to convoys etc. Again these benefits are peanuts compared to the 100 bln + loss to our economy and 40k + civilian lives lost.

OBL was openly calling for war with USA before 9/11. He ordered the hits on East African embassies. Do not tell me the PA could not put a crimp on his operations. Most of his operatives are flying through pakistani airports into afghanistan

 

[TheDarkKnight]

OBL was openly calling for war with USA before 9/11. He ordered the hits on East African embassies. Do not tell me the PA could not put a crimp on his operations. Most of his operatives are flying through pakistani airports into afghanistan

Wow you pin all the responsibilty on Pakistans shoulder like Afghanistan is its province. And what do you mean by 'operatives are' ?? OBL is dead and AQ is gone and dusted ... nothing left now.
For the sake of argument even if your baseless calim of their operatives using/ used Pakistani airports to board flights like thousands do every day is true: Only Pakistani airports have been used allegedly by these operatives? Do the flights of these operatives actually land somewhere after taking off from a Pakistani airport? Do you know what airports and airlines were used by the 9/11 terrorists ... all flights were from within US and the execution and planning was done by the 'Hamburg Cell' in Germany.
There has never been any blame on Pakistan officially (like Iran and Libya have been) from US for 9/11 or any strong link of the incident ever established, to make this ridiculous assertion that Pakistan Army could have taken out OBL before 9/11 or done anything reasonable to prevent it.

I really recommend you to change your user name ... the more I have elaborated with you on this topic, the lesser it suits you.

Regards

 

[wiseone2]

Wow you pin all the responsibilty on Pakistans shoulder like Afghanistan is its province. And what do you mean by 'operatives are' ?? OBL is dead and AQ is gone and dusted ... nothing left now.
For the sake of argument even if your baseless calim of their operatives using/ used Pakistani airports to board flights like thousands do every day is true: Only Pakistani airports have been used allegedly by these operatives? Do the flights of these operatives actually land somewhere after taking off from a Pakistani airport? Do you know what airports and airlines were used by the 9/11 terrorists ... all flights were from within US and the execution and planning was done by the 'Hamburg Cell' in Germany.
There has never been any blame on Pakistan officially (like Iran and Libya have been) from US for 9/11 or any strong link of the incident ever established, to make this ridiculous assertion that Pakistan Army could have taken out OBL before 9/11 or done anything reasonable to prevent it.

I really recommend you to change your user name ... the more I have elaborated with you on this topic, the lesser it suits you.

Regards

the plot for 9/11 was hatched in southern Afghanistan

taliban was a proxy for the ISI.

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/pakistan-turns-over-suspect-in-uss-cole-bombing/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/07/30/us-embassy-bombings-suspect-arrested.html

no one has blamed Libya or Iran for 9/11 except for some lunatic neo-cons in America

we won't even discuss how Bin Laden lived in Pakistan for 9 years without being detected

 

[TheDarkKnight]

the plot for 9/11 was hatched in southern Afghanistan

taliban was a proxy for the ISI.

http://www.heraldnet.com/news/pakistan-turns-over-suspect-in-uss-cole-bombing/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/07/30/us-embassy-bombings-suspect-arrested.html

no one has blamed Libya or Iran for 9/11 except for some lunatic neo-cons in America

we won't even discuss how Bin Laden lived in Pakistan for 9 years without being detected

Never said that no part of 9/11 wasn't planned in Afghanistan (quite obvious as we know OBL and AQ was Afghanistan based during 9/11). Read about Hamburg Cell of AQ in Germany, these were the main executioners of 9/11.

Taliban is Pashtun millitant group, former mujahideens against USSR, which were not only supported by ISI, but also by CIA and western countries. This history is quite well known and fresh, thats why a case against Pak can or never has been built for support in the past ... as every one was involved. Currently even US has decoupled them from AQ and define them as non terror but an insurgent millitant group (correct me if wrong) ... otherwise how can they negotiate a peaceful settlement (you cant negotiate with terrorists right?).

You are misinterpreting the Libya/Iran reference: I didn't say that Libya and Iran were blamed or had any role in 9/11, but to state the fact that officially US has never accused Pakistan of terrorisim or 9/11, like it has done accused Iran and Libya for other terror incidents or attacks.

About OBL in Pak, what does that have to do with the original question we were debating: Pakistan profiting the most from Afghans misfortunes? It was after the war had started anyway ... and again no official accusation on Pak for supporting OBL anyway. You really haven't comeup with any proof or convincing logical argument and have just moved from one weak rhetorical assertion to another; so I see no value in carrying this debate further.

Regards

 

[wiseone2]

Never said that no part of 9/11 wasn't planned in Afghanistan (quite obvious as we know OBL and AQ was Afghanistan based during 9/11). Read about Hamburg Cell of AQ in Germany, these were the main executioners of 9/11.

Taliban is Pashtun millitant group, former mujahideens against USSR, which were not only supported by ISI, but also by CIA and western countries. This history is quite well known and fresh, thats why a case against Pak can or never has been built for support in the past ... as every one was involved. Currently even US has decoupled them from AQ and define them as non terror but an insurgent millitant group (correct me if wrong) ... otherwise how can they negotiate a peaceful settlement (you cant negotiate with terrorists right?).

You are misinterpreting the Libya/Iran reference: I didn't say that Libya and Iran were blamed or had any role in 9/11, but to state the fact that officially US has never accused Pakistan of terrorisim or 9/11, like it has done accused Iran and Libya for other terror incidents or attacks.

About OBL in Pak, what does that have to do with the original question we were debating: Pakistan profiting the most from Afghans misfortunes? It was after the war had started anyway ... and again no official accusation on Pak for supporting OBL anyway. You really haven't comeup with any proof or convincing logical argument and have just moved from one weak rhetorical assertion to another; so I see no value in carrying this debate further.

Regards

My original statement is on the money:
Pakistan has profited more from the misfortunes of Afghanistan than any other country

A lot of the sour grapes directed to USA has to do with the stopping of the gravy train

 

[TheDarkKnight]

My original statement is on the money:
Pakistan has profited more from the misfortunes of Afghanistan than any other country

And my counter argument was: Pakistan has also lost the most from misfortunes of Afghanistan than any other country - and these losses are 10x in magnitude compared to the profits you are listing.

 

[wiseone2]

And my counter argument was: Pakistan has also lost the most from misfortunes of Afghanistan than any other country - and these losses are 10x in magnitude compared to the profits you are listing.

If what you say is true your establishment is stupid. They made a mistake in 1979. They choose to repeat after 2001. I do not believe they are not stupid

 

[BlackMist]

Please discuss,what should be the ideal state of relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan in a post war setting onwards.

Be civil.

Best Regards.

@Sher Malang @Afghan-India @Afghan Eagle @Afghan Strike @Afghan

@Spring Onion @farhan_9909 @ghilzai @Hyperion @Pak-one @Khan_patriot

@Icarus @Xeric @Abu Zolfiqar @jaibi @Luftwaffe and others.

Considering the work made by Gen (R) Zia-ul-Haq during his era, current situation is very much an outcome of his work and America's direct interference. Afghan's have a history of barbarism and do not agree for an external head. Current government does not represent the people of Afghanistan in true essence as major chunk of the state is still under control of Taliban. With India taking complete control of Afghanistan, a good approach could be to improve relations with Iran but not at the cost of KSA. If Iran is on board and China setting up CPEC, Afghanistan will naturally be forced to get involved in an arrangement where India's role will reduce. India is greater thread than America for Pak-Afghan relationships and hence, their involvement needs to be reduced through rise of economy in Afghanistan.

 

[Tiger Awan]

Need to first settle the problem of Durand Line. Only then we can have some kind of working relationship

 

[BlackMist]

Need to first settle the problem of Durand Line. Only then we can have some kind of working relationship

This is quite hard to do considering the relationship of on-ground people across the border. Diplomacy is one approach but the hosted Afghans should now be moved back.

 

[Post Colonnial]

Pakistan for its own sake should give up its grand designs of a servile Afghanistan and collaborate wit Afghn, Indian and Iranian agencies to completely eradicate the terrorist outfits that have become uncontrollable within and by Pakistan. That will lay the groundwork for good regional development

 

[The SC]

Pakistan for its own sake should give up its grand designs of a servile Afghanistan and collaborate wit Afghn, Indian and Iranian agencies to completely eradicate the terrorist outfits that have become uncontrollable within and by Pakistan. That will lay the groundwork for good regional development

What India has to do with this?
Only border sharing nations should negotiate, and the best direction to take is brotherhood based on culture, religion and common interests..
India stands out clearly as the third party that stirs trouble between brothers, it is playing the same proxy war that Usrael is playing in the middle east..

 

[Post Colonnial]

What India has to do with this?
Only border sharing nations should negotiate, and the best direction to take is brotherhood based on culture, religion and common interests..
India stands out clearly as the third party that stirs trouble between brothers, it is playing the same proxy war that Usrael is playing in the middle east..

You are partly right - once Pakistan actually agrees to stop terrorism from within its domain, and after some amount of assurance time to see if they live up to that resolution, then India can step back a bit. Until then India has to support Afghanistan economically and infra-structurally.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Pakistan is an artificial entity. It wasn't there a few years ago, unlike India and Afghanistan. It has no historical relevance. It has no future. It's only foundation is the idea that somehow Muslims ae superior and can't live in minority under the rule of people of other faiths.

This is is Factually wrong. Muslims in minority do live reasonably peacefully in minority in countries around the world. The only way for lasting peace is the breakup of Pakistan into four or five smaller states with each state living peacefully and autonomously with India, Afghanistan, and Iran.

 

[The SC]

You are partly right - once Pakistan actually agrees to stop terrorism from within its domain, and after some amount of assurance time to see if they live up to that resolution, then India can step back a bit. Until then India has to support Afghanistan economically and infra-structurally.

Isn't the US supporting Afghanistan in those regards? I still believe that the US as well as the Indian presence in Afghanistan is mostly related to natural resources, mainly rare earth minerals, Pavot/Oppium for heroin, but mostly for medical use.. here are 10 of the most used pain killers in the world worth hundreds of billions $:http://opium.com/derivatives/10-medications-opium-derivatives/
http://opium.com/derivatives/10-medications-opium-derivatives/
http://opium.com/derivatives/10-medications-opium-derivatives/
Natural resources:
“The War is Worth Waging”: Afghanistan’s Vast Reserves of Minerals and Natural Gas
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-wa...st-reserves-of-minerals-and-natural-gas/19769
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-wa...st-reserves-of-minerals-and-natural-gas/19769
Afghanistan's resources could make it the richest mining region on earth
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-richest-mining-region-on-earth-2000507.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-richest-mining-region-on-earth-2000507.html
Mining for minerals worth $3 trillion in Afghanistan
http://www.khaama.com/mining-for-minerals-in-afghanistan-4028

So no one should be still believing in this terrorism ALIBI

Iraq and Kuwait Oil reserves represent the quarter of world reserves.. war was based on false flag WMD