I've never disputed the history or the birth of the Taliban as you have brought out. What I'm trying to put forward is the recent past, present and the future.
Then what?? The real story of their origin rubbishes any claim that Pakistan had to to do with it back then. And if you mean now and only now. Let me ask you, logically, because I do not know what compels you to make such a weird assumption.
If we didn't make these people, if we didn't properly back them, and if we ever did it was out of pure need and lack of other options, let me ask you, what on earth would poses us to start backing them after 9/11? After the US invasion? After the formation of the TTP?
This again makes me doubt you knew any of that story I just dictated.
You tell me, hasn't the ISI been supporting the Afghan Taliban especially the Haqqani faction/Quetta Shaura? Why? Please answer this question, not the history of the Taliban of which there is no dispute.
Absolute load of tosh. Again, you displease history, I see, especially the kind that doesn't suit your opinion. It may interest you to know who supported these people back in the 1980's.
Now, what do I mean by showing you these pics? We were once involved with these people and a whole host of other bad elements and our role in Afghanistan undoubtedly mutated later on in to something much uglier.
But where is the evidence my dear that we are still involved with all these people? Not a shred of credible evidence.
The only sources that really try to hit this home are the Afghans of all people, who claimed the ISI's hand even in the embassy bombing in Kabul, something which Hillary Clinton completely denied, there is no evidence at all. And these are what is called pressure tactics, and a political game at home. Scapegoat Pakistan became since about 2009, I'd say. It suddenly became convenient to put the blame on apparent failure and eventual defeat.
But I ask you now, who are the Haqqani Network, once again, I'm sure you don't know, but they are Afghan, their aims and ambitions are all in Afghanistan. The fact that they crept in to North Waziristan, does that mean ISI or Pak did it, NO! That is foolish, A lot of people poured right through after a mismanaged invasion, including refugees, Afghan talibs, tribesman, and what are now the TTP.
Now I ask, what again would poses us to back these guys? Especially the Haqqanis engaged in anti-NATO/US attacks? What the bloody hell do we possibly have to gain, huh?!? And why is it that if someone claims that they're in North Waziristan, they so conveniently ignore the fact that US drones hover over with army and govt consent, so if they are there, they are being hit and that is under our blessing.
Also, don't confuse the Afghan taliban and the Haqqani Network, and factions within that network with each other and the Afghan taliban. Yes, they're all evil, but speaking their name in the same breath and trying to blur the lines like that?? Try harder matey...
And don't get me started on support for Afghan taliban, that's an utter load of crap.
And another to buttress my claims.
I'd say quit. The other claims didn't seem to fair so well.
You must be aware of the infamous Kunduz airlift, to evacuate hundreds of top commanders and members of the Taliban, their Pakistani military advisers including ISI agents and Pak army personnel from the city of Kunduz in November 2001 just before its capture by U.S. and the Northern Alliance forces.
Again I pity anyone who bought in to all that crap. Another history lesson is in order.You mentioned Northern alliance, you know who these people are? Murderers, thugs, opportunists, militia as immoral and as rag tag as the taliban themselves.
When they swept through Afghanistan again with US support, they committed massacres of many people, including civilians, foreigners, captured talibs, so on.
Dostum in fact, threatened Pakistanis in Afghanistan, said that he'd treat them badly. We did airlift some diplomats, bureaucracy, some military, some Pakistanis, even the ordinary that were in Afghanistan, otherwise they'd have been killed.
The scale of this lift was blown way out of proportion. Furthermore, unlike those who argue some massive alien spaceship carried out 5000 talibs in one night, just before Kunduz fell. A load of crap.
For starters, the US knew of the lift, denied knowledge so as not to get the press jumping. Secondly, it had been occurring a few nights before kunduz fell, which indicates that the story that we flew out last ditch fleeing militia is a load of crap. Also, the US did have it's suspicions afterwards, but then after talks with us, we exchanged lists of passengers and exact details, and since then, no member of the US staff or NATO has ever bought up the matter again. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the US may actually have helped facilitate the lift. I could tell you a few more details, but this should suffice.
On a side note, I ask you, of all the key leaders of AQ and Afghan militants we caught throughout the years, once again, what would posses us to go and try freeing them, especially when the US was on bear mode in 2001 'you are either with us or against us'?
Once again, rubbish claim.
The U.S. administration agreed to the airlift in an attempt to appease Mush and avoid destabilizing the Pakistani government, who, although overtly an ally of the U.S. in the WOT, had always supported the Taliban. This Pakistani evacuation of anti-U.S. fighters belonging to the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the ISI is also detailed in the BBC documentary, Secret Pakistan: Double Cross and Backlash.
Please for the love of all that is holy, never mention that BBC rather B'BS' report in our convo again.
That was utter propaganda, and a while back I posted an extremely lengthy post on the details of that BS documentary.
In fact, I even wrote a very angry letter to the BBC about this particular report.
And as above, the whole airlift of evil thing's a lie.
So, do you still deny the PA / ISI's deep linkages with the Afghan Taliban?
Absolutely.
Gen Hamid Gul doesn't hesitate to say so.No wonder he is called the father of the Taliban! He even led the failed attack on Jalalabad. According to Brigadier Mohammad Yousef, an officer of the ISI, "the Jihad never recovered from Jalalabad". As a result of this failure, Hamid Gul was sacked by Benazir Bhutto and replaced by Lt Gen Shamsur Rahman Kallu, who pursued a more classical policy of support to the militants fighting Afghanistan
Ask yourself what time this man used to be king, not now, and yes we did some time during the mid'late 90's, where there was no other option alive in Afghanistan, when Afghanistan was in civil war. Even then we were reluctant to involve ourselves. But the situation was dire, we had an unstable neighbour, armed to the brim, ready to explode, millions of refugees, drugs and guns trade. We had Afghanistan imploding in civil war.
So yes, he is right, but you yourself said not to consider the past, because it's not always relevant. Also notice that today's taliban and talibs before 9/11 were very different. All one has to do is analyse the events immediately after 9/11 to realise.
Though, that's a story for another day.
In a nutshell what I wanted to bring out was the fact that the PA and the ISI have been deeply involved with the Afghan Taliban for years and will therefore try to never allow this investment to go in vain.
If you could see my face when I reacted to this sentence....
In my own cute little nutshell I'll say what I am trying to bring out is that unfortunately, watching a BS documentary and using wiki makes you no expert on any of this. Also, that we may have been involved with the talibs at some time, but that was never a problem for anyone for a while (again a story for another day), it was only for a short period. And everything about it is either utter BS or extremely exagerated
TTP is pakistan indigenous problem, in kunar and nuristan they are provided sanctuaries by your friends afghan taliban who are controlling those two provinces thanks to their sanctuaries in pakistan. Fencing durand will keep your taliban filth away from afghans who want peace and stability, not terrorism which stems from north waziristan and quetta.