'No Pakistani official had knowledge of Osama': Grenier

[fd24]

I am obviously not privy to all the details, especially the really sensitive ones, and I suspect nor are you.

What we know is that the US administration didn't trust Pakistan enough with the information, even at the risk of greatly complicating the operation.

We also see the comments from senior US officials including the president which reinforces the same point.

So there are issues of trust and it is based on information which is not all in the public domain.

I think that pakistan dissapoints america that it is not a complete lapdog. It does not do everything america wants and thats why americans lauunch the psych ops starting with raid on osama and all the propaganda that followed

 

[Vinod2070]

Please point to an official accusation supported by evidence on the part of the US.

Now that is quite a task, isn't it? The evidence would be provided privately. Isn't it?

Even most of the accusations would be made privately I guess. The public ones are likely just a tip of the iceberg. What we can observe is the effects on the ground in terms of policies and decisions.

Why would the 'West be convinced' by Pakistan's investigations and refutation? It is rather 'self serving' for the West to pretend that the explanations and investigations are 'not convincing', so as to justify their illegal actions and pressure Pakistan.

OK, as you say. I think they tried hard to play ball with Pakistan and Pakistan got away with much because of their dependence on them for the supply route and logistics.

Even if true, the 'running with the hares and hunting with the hounds' was an argument applicable in the case of some Afghan Taliban factions (Mullah Omar, Haqqani, Hekmetyar) only, and never applicable in the case of Al Qaeda.

How are you so sure? AQ and Taliban are not always so distinct. In fact the latest book by Farhat Taj "Taliban and anti-Taliban" seems to clearly prove that the opposite is true. Looking forward to get my hands on it.

Pakistan was the most feasible location for these people when Afghanistan was invaded - the porous border with Afghanistan, the lack of coordination between the US military and Pakistani forces during the invasion and war, the extensive autonomy enjoyed by the Tribes along the border in Pakistan, anti-Americanism and pro-Taliban politicians and groups - all of that contributed to the decision of AQ to relocate to Pakistan.

Yes but it went much beyond that. They were not just confined to the "lawless" tribal areas.

None of that indicates or supports the allegation of 'official Pakistani military and intelligence complicity with AQ'.

Nothing ever will. One can always refute what one doesn't want to see. Anyway, if this were official policy, it would clearly be confined to a small group on a need to know basis and will never become "official".

The 'self serving' arguments are those adopted by the US and their Indian cheerleaders in pushing out propaganda against Pakistan, given that those arguments have and are being refuted and shown to be flawed, as in this case.

I am not a US supporter, at least not a blind one. I have been to that country a few times but not decided to relocate there leaving my own country behind.

There is much the the USA has done wrong in the WOT and earlier. Some mistakenly and some deliberately.

In this case, I can see why they chose not to trust Pakistan with the sensitive information, even at the cost of a vastly more complicated operation.

Snide rhetoric won't make your allegations 'true' - you still have to provide credible evidence to support them.

I am not sure what evidence I need to provide. It is the USA/NATO not trusting your country and sometimes going public with it. We have all seen those reports.

---------- Post added at 12:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

I think that pakistan dissapoints america that it is not a complete lapdog. It does not do everything america wants and thats why americans lauunch the psych ops starting with raid on osama and all the propaganda that followed

If this were the only reason, 90% of the world would be facing American launched "psych ops".

Iran, North Korea and many others are getting away with much more. So are countries like Venezuela etc.

 

[FaujHistorian]

So you are suggesting Pakistan was aware of the operation ......

Dear poster,

Just stop for a moment and think.

Pakistan and India share very similar techniques and radars for air defenses. Tell me if Pakistani helicopter flies from Lahore and shows up over Delhi without ever getting noticed. Helicopters are notoriously loud and no matter how much stealthy lipstick you put on a blackhawk, it remains a blackhawk.

Blackhawks used in Ben fing ladeen's raid were actually flown from a Pakistani air base Tarbela Ghazi.


Osama Bin Laden dead: Abbottabad raid ended 10 years of defiance as Obama watched | Mail Online


As I said, you can go after sensationalism anti-Pak stories or accept the fact that it was a simple US operation conducted with the knowledge of Pakistani higher ups.

Peace.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Now that is quite a task, isn't it? The evidence would be provided privately. Isn't it?

Even most of the accusations would be made privately I guess. The public ones are likely just a tip of the iceberg. What we can observe is the effects on the ground in terms of policies and decisions.

Without public evidence and not even 'official accusations', what we are left with is propaganda and speculation on the part of the West. You surely can't expect rational, intelligent individuals to buy into these nonsensical allegations simply because the Western media is spouting them.

OK, as you say. I think they tried hard to play ball with Pakistan and Pakistan got away with much because of their dependence on them for the supply route and logistics.

Self-serving in that they keep demanding more than Pakistan's resources can deliver, and are resorting to these kinds of pressure tactics based on propaganda and smear campaigns to continue to retain both domestic support for their actions in South Asia as well as pressure Pakistan internationally.

How are you so sure? AQ and Taliban are not always so distinct. In fact the latest book by Farhat Taj "Taliban and anti-Taliban" seems to clearly prove that the opposite is true. Looking forward to get my hands on it.

You know my opinion of Farhat Taj - a lot of her claims have been debunked by polls sponsored by independent Western organizations, and her writing is shrill, whiny and outright biased and un-objective. Of course people like you would 'love to get their hands on her book' - it is likely to be yet more of the same old anti-Pakistan/anti-PA/ISI smear campaign that she has been spouting for years now on DT.

And almost all these organizations overlap here and there, but the facts and results (hundreds of AQ leaders and members neutralized by Pakistan) clearly indicate that Pakistan has not spared AQ wherever it has found it.

Yes but it went much beyond that. They were not just confined to the "lawless" tribal areas.

We don't have a 'border' on the Eastern side of the Tribal areas - the point is that once they were in the Tribal areas they had the freedom to move into any other part of Pakistan, and the anti-Americanism in the rest of Pakistan along with certain pro-Taliban politicians in the rest of Pakistan ensured they had enough of a 'non-official' support network to survive.

Nothing ever will. One can always refute what one doesn't want to see. Anyway, if this were official policy, it would clearly be confined to a small group on a need to know basis and will never become "official".

By dismissing the lack of credible, or any, evidence in the snide manner above, you could pretty much argue in favor of any nonsensical conspiracy theory out there. What I want to see or not is irrelevant given that you, or anyone else, has yet to actually provide something to 'see' - you have no evidence, you have nothing by speculative conspiracy theories ala '9/11 was committed by the CIA/Mossad'.

I am not a US supporter, at least not a blind one. I have been to that country a few times but not decided to relocate there leaving my own country behind.

What you wish to do is your business - but my point about 'Indian cheerleaders', as you are acting here when it comes to unsubstantiated US propaganda against Pakistan regarding OBL and AQ, remains valid.

There is much the the USA has done wrong in the WOT and earlier. Some mistakenly and some deliberately.

In this case, I can see why they chose not to trust Pakistan with the sensitive information, even at the cost of a vastly more complicated operation.

The lack of trust excuse has already been refuted by me, see the previous posts - merely continuing to reiterate the excuse (lack of trust etc.) does not make the justification of the excuse any more valid.

I am not sure what evidence I need to provide. It is the USA/NATO not trusting your country and sometimes going public with it. We have all seen those reports.

And as already pointed out, none of those 'reports', like the WMD's in Iraq, are substantiated with any credible facts/evidence.

 

[Vinod2070]

Dear poster,

Just stop for a moment and think.

Pakistan and India share very similar techniques and radars for air defenses. Tell me if Pakistani helicopter flies from Lahore and shows up over Delhi without ever getting noticed. Helicopters are notoriously loud and no matter how much stealthy lipstick you put on a blackhawk, it remains a blackhawk.

Blackhawks used in Ben fing ladeen's raid were actually flown from a Pakistani air base Tarbela Ghazi.


Osama Bin Laden dead: Abbottabad raid ended 10 years of defiance as Obama watched | Mail Online


As I said, you can go after sensationalism anti-Pak stories or accept the fact that it was a simple US operation conducted with the knowledge of Pakistani higher ups.

Peace.

Dear sir, I hope you are right.

Obviously your own countrymen don't seem to agree with this version of events.There are several post event happenings (like the arrest of people who helped US execute this operation for example) that also suggest an alternate version of events.

 

[Vinod2070]

Without public evidence and not even 'official accusations', what we are left with is propaganda and speculation on the part of the West. You surely can't expect rational, intelligent individuals to buy into these nonsensical allegations simply because the Western media is spouting them.

Not all diplomacy is public diplomacy.

Self-serving in that they keep demanding more than Pakistan's resources can deliver, and are resorting to these kinds of pressure tactics based on propaganda and smear campaigns to continue to retain both domestic support for their actions in South Asia as well as pressure Pakistan internationally.

Possibly. I think the doubts are raised about the intent in the first place. The resource issue comes later.

You know my opinion of Farhat Taj - a lot of her claims have been debunked by polls sponsored by independent Western organizations, and her writing is shrill, whiny and outright biased and un-objective. Of course people like you would 'love to get their hands on her book' - it is likely to be yet more of the same old anti-Pakistan/anti-PA/ISI smear campaign that she has been spouting for years now on DT.

I personally find her an objective voice. She talks verifiable facts and data unlike many others.

Perhaps a matter of opinion.

And almost all these organizations overlap here and there, but the facts and results (hundreds of AQ leaders and members neutralized by Pakistan) clearly indicate that Pakistan has not spared AQ wherever it has found it.

Agree to a large extent. But that is true for some Taliban leaders as well, like that Zaeef guy. That didn't prevent the "running and hunting at the same time".

We don't have a 'border' on the Eastern side of the Tribal areas - the point is that once they were in the Tribal areas they had the freedom to move into any other part of Pakistan, and the anti-Americanism in the rest of Pakistan along with certain pro-Taliban politicians in the rest of Pakistan ensured they had enough of a 'non-official' support network to survive.

Possible. At least some believe it was not all 'non-official', probably with good reason.

By dismissing the lack of credible, or any, evidence in the snide manner above, you could pretty much argue in favor of any nonsensical conspiracy theory out there. What I want to see or not is irrelevant given that you, or anyone else, has yet to actually provide something to 'see' - you have no evidence, you have nothing by speculative conspiracy theories ala '9/11 was committed by the CIA/Mossad'.

That was my assessment of the situation. You are looking for a smoking gun like proof. I think that will likely never happen.

So, we form conclusions based on available data and facts. E.g. in th Kasab case, you would assume no official complicity, I would think it couldn't have been possible without at least some official complicity. A different glass through which we are looking at the same facts.

What you wish to do is your business - but my point about 'Indian cheerleaders', as you are acting here when it comes to unsubstantiated US propaganda against Pakistan regarding OBL and AQ, remains valid.

To me it fits perfectly with what I have observed happening for at least 3 decades if not more. A continuation of the support to the Afghan rebels, the Kashmiri Jihad, the LET phenomenon, the Taliban, the use of Afghan terror camps against India which were run by the AQ, the supposed use of AQ by the PA under Musharraf against the Shia in Northern areas, the support for terror all over India, the support to Taliban.....

It all forms a pretty cohesive picture as far as I am concerned.

The lack of trust excuse has already been refuted by me, see the previous posts - merely continuing to reiterate the excuse (lack of trust etc.) does not make the justification of the excuse any more valid.

But this is the issue at hand. Obviously your posts have failed to convince me. They may be how you look at the issue but they are not indisputable facts.

And as already pointed out, none of those 'reports', like the WMD's in Iraq, are substantiated with any credible facts/evidence.

What does WMDs in Iraq have to do with OBL?

 

[Jango]

Dear poster,

Just stop for a moment and think.

Pakistan and India share very similar techniques and radars for air defenses. Tell me if Pakistani helicopter flies from Lahore and shows up over Delhi without ever getting noticed. Helicopters are notoriously loud and no matter how much stealthy lipstick you put on a blackhawk, it remains a blackhawk.

Blackhawks used in Ben fing ladeen's raid were actually flown from a Pakistani air base Tarbela Ghazi.


Osama Bin Laden dead: Abbottabad raid ended 10 years of defiance as Obama watched | Mail Online


As I said, you can go after sensationalism anti-Pak stories or accept the fact that it was a simple US operation conducted with the knowledge of Pakistani higher ups.

Peace.

And who told you that?

 

[jeypore]

Dear poster,



ISI/Pak army and US army have performed 1000s of missions together. And if the best you could come with is the stuff above, then I say my dear poster, it is flawed conclusion at best.

Yes, One of the greatest bilateral fight against terrorism was the Tora Bora incident, where Osama cross the border (Pakistan) and your ISI/army having all the intelligence that a specific operations was conducted by the NATO and to Give Osama the wall when he arrives at your (Pakistan) border..........

Thanks....

 

[jeypore]

Because the US Establishment (Administration, Military, Intelligence and associated bureaucracy) is a bunch of paranoid, ungrateful and deceitful bastarrds .....

Why did Hitler choose to massacre so many innocents ...?

Such harsh words for US. Is it because they did it without Pakistanie establisment knowing it or ISI, for the US, was really a failure in there pursit of finding Osama!!!!!!!!!

I believe it was lateral!!!!

 

[jeypore]

Yep, more of the 'CIA and Mossad perpetrated 9/11' kinda logic ...

AGNO, you are starting to sound like these conspiracy theorists...

Just because they thought of an Idea does not mean they actually did it, unless you can prove otherwise......

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not all diplomacy is public diplomacy.

That merely means that there are no credible facts available to substantiate your/US media allegations.

Possibly. I think the doubts are raised about the intent in the first place. The resource issue comes later.

Again, without credible facts to support the 'lack of intent' argument, the American justification for illegal unilateral attacks inside Pakistan is invalid and unsupported

I personally find her an objective voice. She talks verifiable facts and data unlike many others.

Almost all her claims are based on HER organizations alleged research and interviews, not some independent or neutral third party. I have yet to see any neutral/credible substantiation of her claims. Reputed Western polling and media organizations have conducted polls in Pakistan and in FATA/KP, and all of their results contradict Farhat Taj's claims of 'Tribal's love drone attacks etc.'

So I fail to see what basis you have for arguing that 'she talks VERIFIABLE facts and data', when her 'facts and data' have been contradicted by multiple other organizations and analysts.

Agree to a large extent. But that is true for some Taliban leaders as well, like that Zaeef guy. That didn't prevent the "running and hunting at the same time".

Not with Al Qaeda, as demonstrated by Pakistan's neutralization of KSM, Libbi and hundreds of other mid and low level AQ members.

Possible. At least some believe it was not all 'non-official', probably with good reason.

Some also belive '9/11 was perpetrated by CIA/Mossad' - where is the evidence supporting those claims, and where is the evidence that leads to your claim of 'good reason'?

That was my assessment of the situation. You are looking for a smoking gun like proof. I think that will likely never happen.

So, we form conclusions based on available data and facts. E.g. in th Kasab case, you would assume no official complicity, I would think it couldn't have been possible without at least some official complicity. A different glass through which we are looking at the same facts.

Your 'assessment' is supported by nothing, much like the circumstantial speculative arguments made in support of '9/11 by CIA and Mossad' 'assessments'.

So far no verifiable and credible 'data or facts' have been provided to support either official Pakistani involvement in the Mumbai attacks or the US allegations. You can 'assess' all you want, but without any credible evidence/facts to support your assessment, the assessment is pretty much the equivalent of toilet paper.

To me it fits perfectly with what I have observed happening for at least 3 decades if not more. A continuation of the support to the Afghan rebels, the Kashmiri Jihad, the LET phenomenon, the Taliban, the use of Afghan terror camps against India which were run by the AQ, the supposed use of AQ by the PA under Musharraf against the Shia in Northern areas, the support for terror all over India, the support to Taliban.....

Again, there is no credible or verifiable evidence to support Pakistan use or support of AQ in either Kashmir or elsewhere. Support for the Taliban and support for the insurgency fighting Indian occupation in disputed J&K has been discussed extensively already.

It all forms a pretty cohesive picture as far as I am concerned.

More like cherry picking, distorted facts and unsubstantiated speculation to come up with a 'picture the fits your biases and prejudice'.

But this is the issue at hand. Obviously your posts have failed to convince me. They may be how you look at the issue but they are not indisputable facts.

The issue at hand is the need for the US/you to justify your allegations of Pakistani support for Aq/OBL, which so far no one has provided.

What does WMDs in Iraq have to do with OBL?

Indicates that the US is willing to lie, deceive and fabricate intelligence and go to war resulting in hundreds of thousands dead in order to accomplish some twisted strategic objectives.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

Such harsh words for US. Is it because they did it without Pakistanie establisment knowing it or ISI, for the US, was really a failure in there pursit of finding Osama!!!!!!!!!

I believe it was lateral!!!!

I have no idea what you were trying to say there, but please read my previous posts with respect to the raid, in this thread and others.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

AGNO, you are starting to sound like these conspiracy theorists...

Just because they thought of an Idea does not mean they actually did it, unless you can prove otherwise......

Again, please read my posts again, since you are obviously having comprehension problems.

At no point did I argue that 9/11 was committed by the CIA/Mossad - I argued that the kinds of unsubstantiated and speculative allegations being made in the US media and by commentators like Vinod are the equivalent of '9/11 attacks were perpetrated by the CIA and Mossad'.

 

[Vinod2070]

Looks like we are going in circles. You feel your "opinions" are the right ones.

You have presented no "smoking gun" proof for anything that you ask me to do. There will likely never be those "smoking gun" proofs.

So one has to make a best judgement and that always carries a peril that someone else may not agree with it. I am fine with it.

 

[Yeti]

Yet the questions remain. How did Bin Laden avoid ISI surveillance in a military area, just a few hundred metres from a major military base, in a zone where military intelligence traditionally keeps a close eye? And what about the army major who recently built his house just behind Osama's? Did he not wonder about his neighbour with the barbed-wire fence and the security cameras perched on the wall? "I find it entirely implausible that the military and intelligence agencies knew nothing," says Dr Farzana Sheikh, author of Making Sense of Pakistan



Too many questions unanswered is where the doubt seeps in.


Whose side is Pakistan's ISI really on? | World news | The Guardian

 

[lem34]

They got it right this time. They had the weight of evidence.

Your mind is closed and you are in denial. I know some indians are scared of the neighbourhood they live in and hope that america and israel will help you if you get kicked but this is ridiculous psycophancy on your part for americans is incredibke. Oh and your neighbours are peacefull so you dont need america. Back to thread ISI were not complicit there is no evidence of this whatsoever and lack of knowledge does not mean incompetence.

 

[lem34]

Let's look at the facts a known Pakistani nuclear scientist was caught selling secrets to Iran and North Korea, if Gaddafi never spilled the beans God knows what would have happened. Then on top of this we had even al-Qaeda in contact with Pakistani nuclear scientists so to conclude either ISI were so incapable that they were totally clueless all this was going on right under their noses or perhaps some elements in the ISI knew and turned a blind eye.


Asia Times Online - The best news coverage from South Asia

Do you guys not understand the difference between speculation and evidence. And who makes it a crime that other countries than countries blessed by americans can not have nukes?