'No Pakistani official had knowledge of Osama': Grenier

[lem34]

how would you indians feel if i was to say that your secret servise was either complicit in the attack on bombay or incompetent. Complicit because certain senior indian police men involved in exposing hindu terrorism on that train were killed or incompetent because they couldnt stop it. I could come out with lots of theories

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You place a lot of emphasis on this "officially" business for some reason. You think it allows one to get away by claiming that what is happening has "nothing official about it".

However you want to describe it, you have to provide some credible facts/evidence to support the argument that Pakistani State institutions were involved.

Pakistan has played the double game about Taliban since day-1. It was planned at the same time as Musharraf gave the nod to Armitage. Your own people acknowledge it. That you want to remain in denial doesn't mean everyone has to.

Again, if you have credible evidence/facts substantiating your/US argument of Pakistani support for AQ/OBL and/or knowledge of his hideout, please provide it - because otherwise you are just spouting nonsensical and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

The KhyberWatch - PESHAWAR DECLARATION

The issue of Drone attacks is the most important one. If the people of the war-affected areas are satisfied with any counter militancy strategy, it is the Drone attacks which they support the most. According to the people of Waziristan, Drones have never killed any civilian. Even some people in Waziristan compare Drones with Ababels. (The holy swallows send by God to avenge Abraha, the intended conqueror the Khana Kaaba). A component of the Pakistani media, some retired generals, a few journalists/analysts and pro-Taliban political parties never tire in their baseless propaganda against Drone attacks.

That is the same 'Jirga' that Farhat Taj organized making the same claims she has continued to make which have been debunked by multiple other organizations. In fact, in one of her recent articles Taj bemoans the fact that even the ANP has distanced itself from the 'Peshawar Declaration' - of course she attributes it to the usual conspiracy theory of 'the agencies forced the ANP to do so'.

Of course, you will need a "smoking gun" proof that the strategic depth policy ever existed officially.

Snide rhetoric does not change the fact that you/US have not been able to provide any credible facts/evidence supporting the claims of Pakistani State support for AQ/OBL or knowledge of OBL's hideout.

There are many opposing views as well. One I already posted. Some others.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=165781

Link does not work on my end.
Edit: Found another source quoting the article - quotes survey done by Farhat Taj's institute.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Quoting Farhat Taj

Search Results irfan husain howling at the moon zj | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

Irfan Hussain quoting Farhat Taj

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Farhat Taj

You may dismiss the source as much as you want.

Do you realize that you tried to substantiate Farhat Taj's claims be essentially quoting Farhat Taj herself?

Did you really think I would not read through the articles?

 

[Vinod2070]

However you want to describe it, you have to provide some credible facts/evidence to support the argument that Pakistani State institutions were involved.

Again, if you have credible evidence/facts substantiating your/US argument of Pakistani support for AQ/OBL and/or knowledge of his hideout, please provide it - because otherwise you are just spouting nonsensical and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

I have been saying that this "evidence" can only be circumstantial in terms of the results on the ground. Looking at those facts, I have no doubt that there is some measure of complicity in general with Taliban/AQ.

Regarding the OBL case, I am not certain. The coincidence is too big to be true and there are obviously going to be doubts that there was some measure of support.

How high that support went is something one can't say for sure. One can only have suspicions by looking at the bigger picture and the known facts.

That is the same 'Jirga' that Farhat Taj organized making the same claims she has continued to make which have been debunked by multiple other organizations. In fact, in one of her recent articles Taj bemoans the fact that even the ANP has distanced itself from the 'Peshawar Declaration' - of course she attributes it to the usual conspiracy theory of 'the agencies forced the ANP to do so'.


Snide rhetoric does not change the fact that you/US have not been able to provide any credible facts/evidence supporting the claims of Pakistani State support for AQ/OBL or knowledge of OBL's hideout.

Link does not work on my end.
Edit: Found another source quoting the article - quotes survey done by Farhat Taj's institute.

Quoting Farhat Taj

Irfan Hussain quoting Farhat Taj

Farhat Taj

Do you realize that you tried to substantiate Farhat Taj's claims be essentially quoting Farhat Taj herself?

Did you really think I would not read through the articles?

So are you denying that this "Farhat Taj organized Jirga" never took place?

If it did, are you saying that she wielded such a great influence on the conference that it passed that resolution just because she wanted to?

If that resolution was really passed by a tribal Jirga with such a wide representation, what do you think it points to?

Why should one not trust it, coming from a rare source that has access to this "sensitive area"?

 

[lem34]

Agnostic I admire your patience

 

[jeypore]

AgNoStIc MuSliM

The issue at hand is the need for the US/you to justify your allegations of Pakistani support for Aq/OBL, which so far no one has provided.

No one needs to, since it is clearly obvious that OBL was found in Pakistan. It is important to the world, for example if OBL was found in Sudan, then naturally there would be a suspicious to believe that the state was harboring. Likewise, OBL being in Abottsville greatly puts the common sense that after 8 years of searching, Americans had to do the job the hard way..... While Pakistan could have done this in less time, hence failure on the ISI/Army part or Harboring.. Pick one...

Again, please read my posts again, since you are obviously having comprehension problems.

Comprehension Problem!!!! I have read enough of your comprehension AGNO, and still trying to understand them....

At no point did I argue that 9/11 was committed by the CIA/Mossad - I argued that the kinds of unsubstantiated and speculative allegations being made in the US media and by commentators like Vinod are the equivalent of '9/11 attacks were perpetrated by the CIA and Mossad'.

Yes you have not, but what does this sound like when you do comprehend:

Indicates that the US is willing to lie, deceive and fabricate intelligence and go to war resulting in hundreds of thousands dead in order to accomplish some twisted strategic objectives.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have been saying that this "evidence" can only be circumstantial in terms of the results on the ground. Looking at those facts, I have no doubt that there is some measure of complicity in general with Taliban/AQ.

The 'results on the ground', WRT AQ, indicate strong and successful Pakistani efforts in neutralizing AQ members and leadership, including KSM and Libbi. I fail to see what 'circumstantial evidence' you claim exists to substantiate the argument of 'Pakistani complicity with AQ'.

Regarding the OBL case, I am not certain. The coincidence is too big to be true and there are obviously going to be doubts that there was some measure of support.

Some of the recent reports/documentaries on the raid argue that the raid was almost aborted since the US was only around 50% sure that OBL was at that compound. Now think about that without your anti-Pakistan blinkers on - despite having that compound under surveillance for months with the specific intent of verifying OBL's presence, and with all the technology at the disposal of the US, the US was only around 50% sure. So how can anyone expect Pakistan to miraculously realize that OBL was at that compound, when there was nothing to suggest OBL's presence?

So are you denying that this "Farhat Taj organized Jirga" never took place?

If it did, are you saying that she wielded such a great influence on the conference that it passed that resolution just because she wanted to?

I am pointing out that the Jirga was largely organized by Farhat Taj and argued her oft regurgitated position on drone attacks, which remain uncorroborated and in fact refuted by multiple other Western and Pakistani sources. I am also pointing out that Farhat Taj has herself acknowledged that the ANP has distanced itself from that declaration.

Farhat Taj's jirga can no longer be considered anywhere close to being 'Representative of broad opinion in FATA and/or NWFP' regarding drone strikes. The polling data over a number of years from FATA, but multiple organizations from the West and Pakistan, clearly debunk FT's assertions. She has been found to be a liar, plain and simple.

If that resolution was really passed by a tribal Jirga with such a wide representation, what do you think it points to?

The declaration included a lot of commentary and arguments, and was an 'amalgamation' of multiple reports. It would be inaccurate to argue that one aspect of that report somehow represents the opinion of a majority of FATA and/or KP, especially given the multiple other polls and studies focusing on that very question that debunk Farhat Taj's claims.

Why should one not trust it, coming from a rare source that has access to this "sensitive area"?

Because other Western and Pakistani organizations 'with access to this sensitive area' have multiple polls and studies over multiple years debunking Farhat Taj's claims.

 

[Rafi]

The 'results on the ground', WRT AQ, indicate strong and successful Pakistani efforts in neutralizing AQ members and leadership, including KSM and Libbi. I fail to see what 'circumstantial evidence' you claim exists to substantiate the argument of 'Pakistani complicity with AQ'.


Some of the recent reports/documentaries on the raid argue that the raid was almost aborted since the US was only around 50% sure that OBL was at that compound. Now think about that without your anti-Pakistan blinkers on - despite having that compound under surveillance for months with the specific intent of verifying OBL's presence, and with all the technology at the disposal of the US, the US was only around 50% sure. So how can anyone expect Pakistan to miraculously realize that OBL was at that compound, when there was nothing to suggest OBL's presence?


I am pointing out that the Jirga was largely organized by Farhat Taj and argued her oft regurgitated position on drone attacks, which remain uncorroborated and in fact refuted by multiple other Western and Pakistani sources. I am also pointing out that Farhat Taj has herself acknowledged that the ANP has distanced itself from that declaration.

Farhat Taj's jirga can no longer be considered anywhere close to being 'Representative of broad opinion in FATA and/or NWFP' regarding drone strikes. The polling data over a number of years from FATA, but multiple organizations from the West and Pakistan, clearly debunk FT's assertions. She has been found to be a liar, plain and simple.

The declaration included a lot of commentary and arguments, and was an 'amalgamation' of multiple reports. It would be inaccurate to argue that one aspect of that report somehow represents the opinion of a majority of FATA and/or KP, especially given the multiple other polls and studies focusing on that very question that debunk Farhat Taj's claims.

Because other Western and Pakistani organizations 'with access to this sensitive area' have multiple polls and studies over multiple years debunking Farhat Taj's claims.

Your not a lawyer, are you brah? That was a quite devastating argument to conclude that we did not know, even Rummy has come to our defense by pointing out that Whitey Bulger the mobster from Boston - was living for more than a decade in plain site in middle America. And he was also on the FBI's most wanted list next to OBL.

 

[Vinod2070]

The 'results on the ground', WRT AQ, indicate strong and successful Pakistani efforts in neutralizing AQ members and leadership, including KSM and Libbi. I fail to see what 'circumstantial evidence' you claim exists to substantiate the argument of 'Pakistani complicity with AQ'.

This is one set of facts. There is also the other fact of keeping the ace up the sleeve, the trump card that is to be used when the Yankee goes home.

Let's avoid going in circles.

AQ and Taliban are flourishing in NW and other areas of Pakistan. It has been about running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. This is acknowledged by so many Pakistanis themselves leave alone the international writers and media and diplomats.

Some of the recent reports/documentaries on the raid argue that the raid was almost aborted since the US was only around 50% sure that OBL was at that compound. Now think about that without your anti-Pakistan blinkers on - despite having that compound under surveillance for months with the specific intent of verifying OBL's presence, and with all the technology at the disposal of the US, the US was only around 50% sure. So how can anyone expect Pakistan to miraculously realize that OBL was at that compound, when there was nothing to suggest OBL's presence?

See, I already said I am not sure who in Pakistan knew it or didn't. The suspicions about some level of support are genuine given where he was found.

USA was looking for him in a hostile territory and keeping it hidden from the PA/ISI. A tremendously challengin operation even with all the technology at their disposal.

In case of "Pakistan" (or likely just a handful of ISI operatives) it would be a simple matter to keep him hidden in plain sight. You and me can't prove either way.

I am pointing out that the Jirga was largely organized by Farhat Taj and argued her oft regurgitated position on drone attacks, which remain uncorroborated and in fact refuted by multiple other Western and Pakistani sources. I am also pointing out that Farhat Taj has herself acknowledged that the ANP has distanced itself from that declaration.

Farhat Taj's jirga can no longer be considered anywhere close to being 'Representative of broad opinion in FATA and/or NWFP' regarding drone strikes. The polling data over a number of years from FATA, but multiple organizations from the West and Pakistan, clearly debunk FT's assertions. She has been found to be a liar, plain and simple.

The declaration included a lot of commentary and arguments, and was an 'amalgamation' of multiple reports. It would be inaccurate to argue that one aspect of that report somehow represents the opinion of a majority of FATA and/or KP, especially given the multiple other polls and studies focusing on that very question that debunk Farhat Taj's claims.

Because other Western and Pakistani organizations 'with access to this sensitive area' have multiple polls and studies over multiple years debunking Farhat Taj's claims.

Again, it is going in circles. So let me try to summarize it.

I am not convinced Farhat would be able to convince such a diverse gathering to something they didn't agree with themselves. Also I would not place too much stock on ANP going back on their position. One can understand the possible reasons.

And I don't agree with your assertion that "Farhat Taj's jirga can no longer be considered anywhere close to being 'Representative of broad opinion in FATA and/or NWFP' regarding drone strikes".

To me she remains a great source of information and opinion about the happenings and opinions from that "sensitive area".

You are welcome to think otherwise.

 

[lem34]

Contrary to indian assertions americans are not gods. They lie all the time in guise of propaganda and they simply do not like the fact that pakistani ISI will not and will never cooperate with them to contain china or put their interests behind americans interests hense the propaganda against isi

Long live pakistan and ISI

The theory spread by pakistans enemies that ISI was complicit is a flawed theory. If ISI did not know about osama it does not follow they were complicit, no matter how some indians and americans would like to suggest it just simply does not follow

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is one set of facts. There is also the other fact of keeping the ace up the sleeve, the trump card that is to be used when the Yankee goes home.

Let's avoid going in circles.

AQ and Taliban are flourishing in NW and other areas of Pakistan. It has been about running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. This is acknowledged by so many Pakistanis themselves leave alone the international writers and media and diplomats.

The arguments made above are only applicable in the case of the Afghan Taliban, and even then only applicable as a 'plan B' for Pakistan in case the US 'Cuts and Runs' and Afghanistan descends into chaos and civil war again. You have provide no, and there is none, evidence to support allegations of Pakistani complicity with AQ.

USA was looking for him in a hostile territory and keeping it hidden from the PA/ISI. A tremendously challengin operation even with all the technology at their disposal.

The CIA reportedly had a 'safe house' close by, and the argument of 'operating in hostile territory' are patently untrue, at that particular time, since what has come to light since the OBL raid is that US personnel and CIA operatives had tremendous freedom of movement in Pakistan. And this was not surveillance of a nuclear installation or a military base, this was surveillance of a random house with no State security presence around it or focus on it.

In case of "Pakistan" (or likely just a handful of ISI operatives) it would be a simple matter to keep him hidden in plain sight. You and me can't prove either way.

I don't have to prove a negative - you/US are the one making the allegations/claims and therefore the burden of proof is on you, especially since I have poked enough holes in the existing circumstantial arguments being made.

I am not convinced Farhat would be able to convince such a diverse gathering to something they didn't agree with themselves. Also I would not place too much stock on ANP going back on their position. One can understand the possible reasons.

And I don't agree with your assertion that "Farhat Taj's jirga can no longer be considered anywhere close to being 'Representative of broad opinion in FATA and/or NWFP' regarding drone strikes".

To me she remains a great source of information and opinion about the happenings and opinions from that "sensitive area".

You are welcome to think otherwise.

Again, the declaration contained several points, and the gathering was primarily of 'liberal groups', and not necessarily a 'Jirga' of tribal elders. Therefore the contention that every single individual in that gathering, let alone all the people of FATA/KP, agree with Farhat Taj's position on drone strikes, especially given the plethora of subsequent polls and studies indicating otherwise, is flawed.

Is there any credible independent study of FATA opinion on drone strikes that supports Farhat Taj's position on drone strikes?

 

[Vinod2070]

The arguments made above are only applicable in the case of the Afghan Taliban, and even then only applicable as a 'plan B' for Pakistan in case the US 'Cuts and Runs' and Afghanistan descends into chaos and civil war again. You have provide no, and there is none, evidence to support allegations of Pakistani complicity with AQ.


The CIA reportedly had a 'safe house' close by, and the argument of 'operating in hostile territory' are patently untrue, at that particular time, since what has come to light since the OBL raid is that US personnel and CIA operatives had tremendous freedom of movement in Pakistan. And this was not surveillance of a nuclear installation or a military base, this was surveillance of a random house with no State security presence around it or focus on it.


I don't have to prove a negative - you/US are the one making the allegations/claims and therefore the burden of proof is on you, especially since I have poked enough holes in the existing circumstantial arguments being made.


Again, the declaration contained several points, and the gathering was primarily of 'liberal groups', and not necessarily a 'Jirga' of tribal elders. Therefore the contention that every single individual in that gathering, let alone all the people of FATA/KP, agree with Farhat Taj's position on drone strikes, especially given the plethora of subsequent polls and studies indicating otherwise, is flawed.

Is there any credible independent study of FATA opinion on drone strikes that supports Farhat Taj's position on drone strikes?

I never set out to "prove" anything. There is no burden of proof on me.

I have reasonable grounds to believe in what I do, based on my observations and what I learn from others. No one can take that from me, same as I can't force you to believe in anything.

When you talk of plan "B", what really was the plan "A" then? Or was it a case of the tail wagging the dog?

NW (and the likes of Haqqanis) are hand in glove with AQ. There is no clear cut distinction.

CIA still had to keep the stuff hidden despite the "tremendous freedom of movement in Pakistan". Couldn't have been very easy in a garrison town.

I don't necessarily share your aversion to 'liberal groups'.

I am not aware of any independent study in that area or otherwise. I have no reason to doubt the credibility of Farhat.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I never set out to "prove" anything. There is no burden of proof on me.

You are arguing 'some official Pakistani State knowledge of OBL's presence and complicity with AQ', that is an allegation. If you want to state that you 'suspect the above, but admit there is not credible evidence to support your suspicions', then I can accept your position.

Nonetheless, beyond your personal claims/allegations/suspicions, there are many UC officials/journalists/commentators who have made similar allegations, so the above arguments by myself and others apply as refutations to those allegations.

I have reasonable grounds to believe in what I do, based on my observations and what I learn from others. No one can take that from me, same as I can't force you to believe in anything.

You have weak speculation and conspiracy theories, not reasonable grounds, rather similar to the 'reasonable grounds' some people use to argue '9/11 was a CIA/Mossad job'.

When you talk of plan "B", what really was the plan "A" then? Or was it a case of the tail wagging the dog?

Plan A pretty much went down the drain when the US chose to abandon Afghanistan and wage war in Iraq - plan A was to have a government in Afghanistan representative of all stakeholders and a clear and focused policy on stabilizing the country long term.

Plan A currently revolves around a similar political reconciliation between all actors in Afghanistan and some sort of power sharing government and arrangement, with Afghanistan being governed as a loose Federation, to ensure peace and stability.

NW (and the likes of Haqqanis) are hand in glove with AQ. There is no clear cut distinction.

The US would like to argue that, but the Haqqanis and Mullah Omar have so far shown no indication of having ambitions outside of Afghanistan, they have not perpetrated or plotted any attacks outside of Afghanistan/Pakistan. It is in fact the TTP that has tried to, or at least claimed to, attack US interests outside of the region.

CIA still had to keep the stuff hidden despite the "tremendous freedom of movement in Pakistan". Couldn't have been very easy in a garrison town.

Your argument here is factually flawed since Abbottabda is not a 'garrison town' as has been pointed out already- there is no military garrison there, just a military academy.

And yes, the CIA was not advertising their activities, but that would be the case with any surveillance operation - the point is, as the inquiries into the Abbottabad raid and Pakistan's limitation of US diplomatic movements indicate, that US personnel had tremendous freedom of movement, they utilized locals to assist them, and they were monitoring a shabby house in a non-secure neighborhood that Pakistani authorities had no concern about since it was not near to any strategic or sensitive installations. The risks of the surveillance operation itself were pretty minimal for the CIA, and if they couldn't even be more than 50% certain of OBL's presence after months of focused surveillance of that particular compound, then Pakistan can certainly not be called either incompetent or complicit.

I don't necessarily share your aversion to 'liberal groups'.

My aversion is only towards certain liberal groups that tend to 'self loathe'.

I am not aware of any independent study in that area or otherwise. I have no reason to doubt the credibility of Farhat.

Yet more intellectual dishonesty? I have already posted links to multiple polls conducted by independent Western and Pakistani institutions in FATA/KP/Pakistan - they all debunk Farhat Taj's claims - she is the only one ranting about 'the tribals love drones strikes'. There is absolutely no independent corroboration of FT's claims, and you know it, but you can't admit because it would dent your anti-Pakistan hatred and prejudice.

 

[Rafi]

^^^^^
AM - You have proved conclusively that there is no evidence besides conjecture about alleged collusion regarding OBL, and why would Donald Rumsfeld a seasoned and grizzled former Defense Secretory - and who has served numerous Presidents - defend Pakistan. It just goes to show the authorities did not know, because if the state really wanted to hide him, he would not have been found, and the intelligence about the couriers identity, would not have found it's way to the CIA, via Pakistani Intelligence.

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ Unless you can leave out the tendency to label me (and you know I couldn't care less, I don't feel the need for a character certificate from you or anyone else), it is difficult to have a discussion.

I never said I have any "credible proof". I also said it is highly unlikely there would be a "credible proof" that would stand in a court of law. Any support would be covert and extremely unlikely to come out in the public domain. I didn't even make any accusations in this thread. I just said that I believe there exists the possibility of some measure of support and right now there is no "proof" in the public domain either way. We only have circumstantial evidence to go by and form our opinion.

Plan A pretty much went down the drain when the US chose to abandon Afghanistan and wage war in Iraq - plan A was to have a government in Afghanistan representative of all stakeholders and a clear and focused policy on stabilizing the country long term.

Plan A currently revolves around a similar political reconciliation between all actors in Afghanistan and some sort of power sharing government and arrangement, with Afghanistan being governed as a loose Federation, to ensure peace and stability.

So it is Plan-B which is in action since 2003? How could plan-A really be allowed to succeed if plan-B was to have any realistic chance?

Nothing more from me on the Farhat Taj. My opinion of her writing has nothing to do with anything that you claim.

 

[FaujHistorian]

In reply to my post #78,

Dear sir, I hope you are right.

Obviously your own countrymen don't seem to agree with this version of events.There are several post event happenings (like the arrest of people who helped US execute this operation for example) that also suggest an alternate version of events.

"Arresting" people after the death of ben fing ladeen, in reality is "debriefing" that both RAW and ISI uses in their countries.

Think about this.

One of the biggest terrorist is caught living next to your house in Mumbai.

Indian agencies will not waste a single moment before picking you up and taking you to police/interrogation station.

Who brought ben fing ladeen to Abbot-abad, who spied on him, who fed him, who clothed him, who gave him medicine are all those people who would be and should be questioned.

What is so conspiratorial about it?

As I said earlier (and provided you with news link in #78) that Pakistan army facilitated the operation and allowed it to go forward.

Some in Obama admn. got overzealous and started putting down their own teammates aka Pak army. This is never a kosher thing to do. It destroys team spirit and ultimately the whole team.

However the US admn has since clamped down on such efforts and team has started to work again as a team.


This is a plain and simple analysis unless you want to follow Islamist conspiracy theorists.

Peace.