'No Pakistani official had knowledge of Osama': Grenier

[lem34]

Contrary to indian assertions americans are not gods. They lie all the time in guise of propaganda and they simply do not like the fact that pakistani ISI will not and will never cooperate with them to contain china or put their interests behind americans interests hense the propaganda against isi

Long live pakistan and ISI

 

[mitth]

no every intelligence...........found the Osama..........
But osama's death.......Pakistan face many problem........
But China and other country with us of Pakistan......
And i also with ISI..
Long Live for Pakistan.........

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yet the questions remain. How did Bin Laden avoid ISI surveillance in a military area, just a few hundred metres from a major military base, in a zone where military intelligence traditionally keeps a close eye? And what about the army major who recently built his house just behind Osama's? Did he not wonder about his neighbour with the barbed-wire fence and the security cameras perched on the wall? "I find it entirely implausible that the military and intelligence agencies knew nothing," says Dr Farzana Sheikh, author of Making Sense of Pakistan

1. It was not a military base, it was a military academy - when commentators cannot even get basic facts correct, that really illustrates the flaws in the preceding analysis.

2. What ISI surveillance? Why would the ISI choose to put this particular house in a city of hundreds of thousands under round the clock surveillance? The listed owners of the house were not wanted for any criminal activity and any background check on them would not have thrown up any red flags - so why would this particular house be under surveillance?

3. Again, barbed wire and security cameras are not that common in Pakistan anymore. I have pointed out in the past that my parents have 10/12 foot high walls around their Villa in Lahore topped with shards of glass. They also recently installed a 'ringer' at the front gate that includes a camera that feeds back to a screen inside the house when visitors 'ring the bell'.

These are all speculative and conspiratorial arguments, much like the ones used by some to argue that the 'CIA and Mossad committed the 9/11 attacks'.

Too many questions unanswered is where the doubt seeps in.

Fort conspiracy theorists there will always be 'too much doubt'.

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

Fair enough. Government of Pakistan doesn't know about this. ISI or the Army doesn't know about this. Then what the government, ISI, and army is doing there? WHY they are not aware of the biggest terrorist living near military academy?

Even if its a clean chit, there's a question for Pakistan's ability.

When India and the US can eliminate every single criminal and crime from their nations, then you can make this argument - otherwise what is the point of your security services, government and military and intelligence? India continues to see terrorist attacks happen. Disband your military, intelligence and security services then ...

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 PM ----------

Yeti - there is a dedicated thread on the Headley/Rana trial and his claims - read through that before regurgitating the same debunked claims.

 

[Nelson]

Agno,

I wanna put it in very simple words.
1. If Pakistan knew about OBL, then her honesty is in question.
2. If Pakistan didn't know about OBL, then her capability is in question.
now its upto you which one you wanna choose.
by the way, we never say that our government and intelligence agencies are god. we accept our failures, but you don't seem to do that.

 

[lem34]

Agno,

I wanna put it in very simple words.
1. If Pakistan knew about OBL, then her honesty is in question.
2. If Pakistan didn't know about OBL, then her capability is in question.
now its upto you which one you wanna choose.
by the way, we never say that our government and intelligence agencies are god. we accept our failures, but you don't seem to do that.

You still havnt read all the posts on this thread i responded to this assertion earlier

 

[Yeti]

@Agnostic muslim I agree it is a academy but that house was highly unusual for the area dont you say? I mean if someone was constructing such a big project with huge walls/cctv etc did nobody bother to ask who is moving in? What about the kids who lost their ball and were given large amounts of money in return does that not look even a little bit suspecious?

There were no phones or internet wires running into the compound also.


One farmer said, "People were skeptical in this neighborhood about this place and these guys. They used to gossip, say they were smugglers or drug dealers. People would complain that even with such a big house they didn't invite the poor or distribute charity." Present at some neighborhood funerals, two men from the compound were "tall, fair skinned and bearded" and self-identified as cousins from elsewhere in the region.[30] If a child's cricket ball went over the fence, the men in the compound did not return that ball; instead they paid the child 100–150 Pakistani rupees (about US$2–3), many times the value of the ball.


All these small little things and did nobody even local police let alone the mighty ISI bother to investigate? why i ask

 

[Nelson]

You still havnt read all the posts on this thread i responded to this assertion earlier

I did. they all can be categorized under denial. If you have something new then shoot.

 

[fd24]

You still havnt read all the posts on this thread i responded to this assertion earlier

Aryan whats wrong with you mate? Why are you wasting your time. Guy is not prepared to read your previous texts. Dont waste energy or timein telling him.
As ive told you, you can take a donkey to water but you cant force it to drink.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Taliban part is very clear. Are you now even denying that? You obliquely accepted that yesterday, so does your elected president. Remember "running and hunting at the same time"?

I specifically talked about 'officially allowing the Taliban to escape and shelter in FATA' - I am not referring to the support for the Taliban during the Afghan Civil war or the subsequent peace deals with the Haqqanis, after the US squandered its opportunity to stabilize Afghanistan and chose to invade Iraq.

She mentioned a tribal Jirga for example that welcomed the drones and I saw an independent proof of that. She is herself a tribal and a highly educated one that carries some credibility for her knowledge of the affairs there.

What Tribal Jirga? Any reports in the Pakistani press about this Jirga? And even if that claim was true, one Jirga is not representative of all of FATA.

And whether she is a Tribal or not has little to do with the veracity of her claims, which have been debunked by not just one, but multiple polls and studies conducted by different Western and Pakistani organizations.

I see no reason to take your words over hers.

Nonsense, this isn't even about 'my word', I am referencing multiple studies and polls by reputable Western and Pakistani organizations that debunk Farhat Taj's claims. You are the one insisting on sticking your head in the sand and believing everything Taj has to say because it fits in with your anti-Pakistan prejudice, despite the fact that Taj's claims have been debunked.

You have not even produced those "polls" that have supposedly "repeatedly debunked by reputable Western organizations conducting their own studies and polls in Pakistan".

Lol - you seriously want to suggest that you don't know? Apparently your news filter ignores everything but that which fits your prejudice and bias.

All those polls have been discussed in this forum - do a search. I will 'spoon feed' your feigned ignorance of studies debunking Farhat Taj for now:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/74763-public-opinion-pakistan-s-tribal-regions.html

Drones | FATA: Inside Pakistan's Tribal Regions

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...military-operation-north-waziristan-poll.html

U.S. Image in Pakistan Falls No Further Following bin Laden Killing | Pew Global Attitudes Project

As much as you may want to negate it, she is actually becoming quite credible on these issues.

The only people I have heard quote her are those with a predisposition towards her views in the first place. Again, there is far more independent evidence that contradicts her claims, while her claims have no independent corroboration, and are essentially just her claims and opinions.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@Agnostic muslim I agree it is a academy but that house was highly unusual for the area dont you say? I mean if someone was constructing such a big project with huge walls/cctv etc did nobody bother to ask who is moving in? What about the kids who lost their ball and were given large amounts of money in return does that not look even a little bit suspecious?

The owners were not criminals, so at the most there would have been a background check on those individuals and then what? Nothing further to go on since no red flags were thrown up. The house itself is rather pathetic and grungy looking - it appears to fit in with the rest, it is no 'million dollar mansion', and the security measures are not unusual either.

And the kids are lucky they got their ball back - there were some families whose homes you dared not even ring the bell at to get your ball back since you were liable to get yelled at. I am not sure what kind of fantasy land you guys live in, but you are clutching at straws and conspiracies to build this case.

There were no phones or internet wires running into the compound also.

So what? Why should that be suspicious in a developing country with a large conservative population? The owners checked out and there were no reports of suspicious activity at the compound, so there was nothing further to do.

One farmer said, "People were skeptical in this neighborhood about this place and these guys. They used to gossip, say they were smugglers or drug dealers. People would complain that even with such a big house they didn't invite the poor or distribute charity." Present at some neighborhood funerals, two men from the compound were "tall, fair skinned and bearded" and self-identified as cousins from elsewhere in the region.[30] If a child's cricket ball went over the fence, the men in the compound did not return that ball; instead they paid the child 100–150 Pakistani rupees (about US$2–3), many times the value of the ball.

Just because people suspect someone of being a drug smuggler does not mean the police will go barging in. If they were drug smugglers or criminals, eventually some criminal activity would have been reported which would have given the police basis to investigate further.

All these small little things and did nobody even local police let alone the mighty ISI bother to investigate? why i ask

How many neighbors do you think would go to the police and 'complain' -

these people are too private and security conscious, they pay our kids money for the balls they lose, they don't distribute charity and they don't invite us to their home'

Do you realize how utterly absurd that sounds? You expect a law enforcement official to waste time based on that?

 

[AmberDutt]

The funny thing that i read elsewhere also on the forum is that OBL lived in a house less than a KM away from the place where Kayani stayed / gave a speech (dont know about the exact distance though). Now Kayani being the most powerful man in Pakistan, didnt the security preparations for his visit need the houses in a given radius to be sanitized.

I know this radius is as high as 3-4 km for events like Republic day parade or a major visiting dignitary in India..
Also I have too much respect for ISI's capability to believe that OBL was living so close to the biggest Military academy of Pakistan unknown and unseen..

Somehow doesnt tie up

 

[Yeti]

@Agnostic muslim you put up a good counter claim have you ever considered a career in law? you would be good at it

 

[lem34]

The funny thing that i read elsewhere also on the forum is that OBL lived in a house less than a KM away from the place where Kayani stayed / gave a speech (dont know about the exact distance though). Now Kayani being the most powerful man in Pakistan, didnt the security preparations for his visit need the houses in a given radius to be sanitized.

I know this radius is as high as 3-4 km for events like Republic day parade or a major visiting dignitary in India..
Also I have too much respect for ISI's capability to believe that OBL was living so close to the biggest Military academy of Pakistan unknown and unseen..

Somehow doesnt tie up

Rumers and speculation

 

[AmberDutt]

Rumers and speculation

About ISI's capability or Kayani's visit to abbotabad a few days before the operation??

 

[Vinod2070]

I specifically talked about 'officially allowing the Taliban to escape and shelter in FATA' - I am not referring to the support for the Taliban during the Afghan Civil war or the subsequent peace deals with the Haqqanis, after the US squandered its opportunity to stabilize Afghanistan and chose to invade Iraq.

You place a lot of emphasis on this "officially" business for some reason. You think it allows one to get away by claiming that what is happening has "nothing official about it".

Pakistan has played the double game about Taliban since day-1. It was planned at the same time as Musharraf gave the nod to Armitage. Your own people acknowledge it. That you want to remain in denial doesn't mean everyone has to.

What Tribal Jirga? Any reports in the Pakistani press about this Jirga? And even if that claim was true, one Jirga is not representative of all of FATA.

The KhyberWatch - PESHAWAR DECLARATION

The workshop was attended by the provincial leadership of Awami National Party (ANP), Pukhtunkhwa Mili Awami Party PMAP, Pakistan Peoples Party Parliamentarians (PPPP), Pakistan Peoples Party Sherpao PPP(S), National Party (NP) and Awami party Pakistan (APP). Civil society organizations under the banner of Amn Tehrik, (Peace Movement) businessmen, doctors, lawyers, teachers, students, laborers and intellectuals also participated in the workshop. Representatives from all the agencies of FATA, Swat, Malakand and Buner also participated. A significant number of female participants were also present.

The issue of Drone attacks is the most important one. If the people of the war-affected areas are satisfied with any counter militancy strategy, it is the Drone attacks which they support the most. According to the people of Waziristan, Drones have never killed any civilian. Even some people in Waziristan compare Drones with Ababels. (The holy swallows send by God to avenge Abraha, the intended conqueror the Khana Kaaba). A component of the Pakistani media, some retired generals, a few journalists/analysts and pro-Taliban political parties never tire in their baseless propaganda against Drone attacks.

A) Political Recommendations for the Elimination of Terrorism:

1. The conference agreed upon the decision that the strategic depth policy is not only the cause of terrorism but also it is an end in itself regarding terrorism. The policy caused thousands times greater harm to Pakistan than any NRO or writing off debts could do. Due to this policy hundreds of thousands people killed or injured. The policy has pushed Pakistan into such abysmal depths that its foundations are eroding. The conference agreed upon the idea that the people of Pakistan would still be resolute to oppose terrorist ideology even if the US, NATO or ISAF are defeated in Afghanistan and the terrorist capture the throne of Kabul. If the terrorists succeeded in Afghanistan their next target would be Pakistan. Therefore, this policy is destructive for Pakistan and should be abolished above board.

Of course, you will need a "smoking gun" proof that the strategic depth policy ever existed officially.

And whether she is a Tribal or not has little to do with the veracity of her claims, which have been debunked by not just one, but multiple polls and studies conducted by different Western and Pakistani organizations.


Nonsense, this isn't even about 'my word', I am referencing multiple studies and polls by reputable Western and Pakistani organizations that debunk Farhat Taj's claims. You are the one insisting on sticking your head in the sand and believing everything Taj has to say because it fits in with your anti-Pakistan prejudice, despite the fact that Taj's claims have been debunked.



Lol - you seriously want to suggest that you don't know? Apparently your news filter ignores everything but that which fits your prejudice and bias.

All those polls have been discussed in this forum - do a search. I will 'spoon feed' your feigned ignorance of studies debunking Farhat Taj for now:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/74763-public-opinion-pakistan-s-tribal-regions.html

Drones | FATA: Inside Pakistan's Tribal Regions

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...military-operation-north-waziristan-poll.html

U.S. Image in Pakistan Falls No Further Following bin Laden Killing | Pew Global Attitudes Project


The only people I have heard quote her are those with a predisposition towards her views in the first place. Again, there is far more independent evidence that contradicts her claims, while her claims have no independent corroboration, and are essentially just her claims and opinions.

There are many opposing views as well. One I already posted. Some others.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=165781

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Search Results irfan husain howling at the moon zj | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

You may dismiss the source as much as you want.