New Chinese stealth fighter heightens dilemma for Indian Navy

[Chinese-Dragon]

I'm sorry but you cannot build an advanced 5th gen fighter by will alone! The question remains how has China bypassed decades of R&D and TRILLIONS of dollars in investment? You need to build up a sound technical base which takes decades. I understand a lot of it is down to reverse engineering and IP theft but that can't account for it all. The only logical answer is China simply hasn't caught up with the likes of the Russians,Americans or even Europeans.


Otherwise you sound like a brainwashed school child repeating the great accomplishments of the great Chinese people thanks to the great Chinese part or whatever communists teach their children.

I grew up in Hong Kong under British administration.

So your typical "Communist brainwashing" trick doesn't work here. I was educated in an International school.

I look at actual results. China has beaten the expectations, India always falls behind the expectations. Isn't India supposed to be growing at double-digits now, according to their own boasting? Instead they are at 4.9%.

India, which hasn't even been able to induct even a single one of its own fighter planes (made from foreign components), you guys are talking about AMCA and FGFA? Now who is being unrealistic?

 

[UKBengali]

Oh God! You simply cannot play this "Chinese superiority" card. Give me a logical and reasonable theory to why China, working in complete isolation, is able to bypass DECADES of R&D work and TRILLIONS of USD in investment to be able to build a capable 5th gen fighter? This defies logic.

Let me try to explain....

The J-20 and J-31 do have a very strong Chinese technological base to build on.

Both fighters have the J-10 fighter as a base to work on. Apart from the engine, the rest of the aircraft is completely indigenous. It does not matter that China may have gotten assistance in the form of copying or direct buying of the technology, the fact is they can now make the whole of the J-10(minus the engine) by themselves.

This means that they can use a very decent 4th generation fighter(J-10) as a base to develop a 5th generation fighter - there is no generation skipping involved.

The big differences that China has when they designed their stealth fighters is that the US had already shown of their designs and so the Chinese naturally mirrored the shapes - why spend an extra decade figuring this out when someone has given you it for free!

China will easily be able to make airframes, avionics and missiles to 5th generation standards as they already have a 4th generation base on which to build on - also indigenous radars on fighters such as JF-17, Type-052C destroyer AESA radar and KJ-2000 AWACS AESA radar.

The one major worry is the engines but there is some optimism as the WS-10A has been inducted into the J-11B since 2010. There is a possibility that both the J-20 and J-31 may only have upgraded 4th generation engines in the first few years of their service but these aircraft would still be FAR superior to any 4th generation birds they may face.

Hope this explains things.

 

[帅的一匹]

One never know how much back door assistance you take from russia.
If you had enough know how then you wouldn't been copying russian frames and even j-20 frame is copied from f-22.

we made it , India fail. I mean you can't reverse a Mig21 even nowadays, which makes you have a gap to fill up.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let me try to explain....

The J-20 and J-31 do have a very strong Chinese technological base to build on.

Both fighters have the J-10 fighter as a base to work on. Apart from the engine, the rest of the aircraft is completely indigenous. It does not matter that China may have gotten assistance in the form of copying or direct buying of the technology, the fact is they can now make the whole of the J-10(minus the engine) by themselves.

This means that they can use a very decent 4th generation fighter(J-10) as a base to develop a 5th generation fighter - there is no generation skipping involved.

The big differences that China has when they designed their stealth fighters is that the US had already shown of their designs and so the Chinese naturally mirrored the shapes - why spend an extra decade figuring this out when someone has given you it for free!

China will easily be able to make airframes, avionics and missiles to 5th generation standards as they already have a 4th generation base on which to build on - also indigenous radars on fighters such as JF-17, Type-052C destroyer AESA radar and KJ-2000 AWACS AESA radar.

The one major worry is the engines but there is some optimism as the WS-10A has been inducted into the J-11B since 2010. There is a possibility that both the J-20 and J-31 may only have upgraded 4th generation engines in the first few years of their service but these aircraft would still be FAR superior to any 4th generation birds they may face.

Hope this explains things.

So in the space of under 15 years China has gone from creating rip-offs of Mig-21s to creating 5th gen fighters comparable with the F-22/PAK-FA, no sorry not buying it. For ANY nation this is pretty much impossible let alone a nation working in complete ISOLATION! China's strength has always been imitation not innovation, I can't see how this mindset would change in the span of less than a generation.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

So in the space of under 15 years China has gone from creating rip-offs of Mig-21s to creating 5th gen fighters comparable with the F-22/PAK-FA, no sorry not buying it. For ANY nation this is pretty much impossible let alone a nation working in complete ISOLATION! China's strength has always been imitation not innovation, I can't see how this mindset would change in the span of less than a generation.

Keep believing what you want.

When people say that we can't possibly build a 5th generation fighter, we build two of them and get them flying.

When people say we can't send people into space or build or own space lab, we go ahead and do that in front of the world.

When people say that an ASBM "carrier killer" missile is impossible because USA/Russia haven't done it yet, we go ahead and make it operational.

We'll keep doing these things, and proving the naysayers wrong. The sad thing is that the ones who are trying to develop themselves like we did (India) are the biggest naysayers of all.

 

[UKBengali]

So in the space of under 15 years China has gone from creating rip-offs of Mig-21s to creating 5th gen fighters comparable with the F-22/PAK-FA, no sorry not buying it. For ANY nation this is pretty much impossible let alone a nation working in complete ISOLATION! China's strength has always been imitation not innovation, I can't see how this mindset would change in the span of less than a generation.

Yes, you are right there.

The Chinese are imitating the F-22/F-35 with the J-20/J-31.

This is what you do when you are still playing catch-up.

No-one is actually claiming here that the J-20/J-31 will be as good as the F-22, just that it will be competitive with it to the point that an F-22 pilot that comes up against either of these aircraft will not be confident that he will win easily.

China would have done well as long as their 5th generation jets are much better than 4th generation jets such as Eurofighter and Rafale, if still inferior to the F-22.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Keep believing what you want.

When people say that we can't possibly build a 5th generation fighter, we build two of them and get them flying.

When people say we can't send people into space or build or own space lab, we go ahead and do that in front of the world.

When people say that an ASBM "carrier killer" missile is impossible because USA/Russia haven't done it yet, we go ahead and make it operational.

We'll keep doing these things, and proving the naysayers wrong. The sad thing is that the ones who are trying to develop themselves like we did (India) are the biggest naysayers of all.

Well persoanlly I NEVER said China couldn't do any of those things. But to be fair all we have seen is a few stealthy looking fighters flying around, we know next to nothing on the internals of the fighters. And that is how a 5th gen fighter really separates itself- the avionics,mission computers, sensor fusion, EW systems etc and we can't tell the capabilities of such systems from a few pics at all. And this is certainly the arena where China is lacking IMHO. But it is impossible either way to rule on the J-20/31 because we don't have any sort of specs for them so judgements can't be made with absolute certainty just educated guesses. And I'm going to say I personally don't belive the Chinese are, right now, up to making a 5th gen fighter comparable to the F-22 or PAK-FA.

Yes, you are right there.

The Chinese are imitating the F-22/F-35 with the J-20/J-31.

This is what you do when you are still playing catch-up.

No-one is actually claiming here that the J-20/J-31 will be as good as the F-22, just that it will be competitive with it to the point that an F-22 pilot that comes up against either of these aircraft will not be confident that he will win easily.

China would have done well as long as their 5th generation jets are much better than 4th generation jets such as Eurofighter and Rafale, if still inferior to the F-22.

Even that will be an incredible achivement! As it has already been said by many experts that the sensors on these a/c, but particularly the Rafale are of 5th gen fighter qulaity. The SPECTRA system on the Rafale is better than any similar system on ANY fighter on earth and there is no way the Chinese have developed a system comparable or superior to it.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

And I'm going to say I personally don't belive the Chinese are, right now, up to making a 5th gen fighter comparable to the F-22 or PAK-FA.

Fair enough. We'll keep pushing ahead nonetheless, even if we cannot build something to the level of the F-22 yet, we're moving forward and that's what counts.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Fair enough. We'll keep pushing ahead nonetheless, even if we cannot build something to the level of the F-22 yet, we're moving forward and that's what counts.

Absolutely- that is the spirit! One day China will defiantly be there, it is making the right steps and doing what it needs to do in order to achive it. Good luck guys!

 

[帅的一匹]

To Abingdonboy: you will have more surprise In the future, you have got to adapt it. To accept or deny, up to you.

 

[UKBengali]

Fair enough. We'll keep pushing ahead nonetheless, even if we cannot build something to the level of the F-22 yet, we're moving forward and that's what counts.

What matters is that the US would see the J-20/J-31 as a serious threat to it's fighters.

It can not assume that they would be so much more inferior to F-22 that they can shoot them down easily.

In that sense, China would have won by virtue that it would have created a credible deterrence.

 

[Abingdonboy]

To Abingdonboy: you will have more surprise In the future, you have got to adapt it. To accept or deny, up to you.

I will make an assessment on any new developments and will evaluate them based on my understanding and logic and then pass judgment.

What matters is that the US would see the J-20/J-31 as a serious threat to it's fighters.

It can not assume that they would be so much more inferior to F-22 that they can shoot them down easily.

In that sense, China would have won by virtue that it would have created a credible deterrence.

Or the US just buys more F-22s. And to be fair they are already going to buy 2,500+ F-35s, coupled with ~200 F-22s this is a force no one can mess with.

 

[帅的一匹]

F35 is too expensive to be affordable, not to mention 2500. Don't forget USA government is facIng a Fisical cliff and potential trust downgrade.

 

[Paan Singh]

we made it , India fail. I mean you can't reverse a Mig21 even nowadays, which makes you have a gap to fill up.

WE did not fail.Instead,we make under licence from russia or pay for TOT.
Perfect example is MKI which is made under license with best parts from all over world and that y it is most advanced version of flanker in inventory.

 

[帅的一匹]

Mr Han Rafale is also expensive are going for it...We willl go for F 35 if needed and its better than your Plastic Can

Don't understand what you say....:

WE did not fail.Instead,we make under licence from russia or pay for TOT.
Perfect example is MKI which is made under license with best parts from all over world and that y it is most advanced version of flanker in inventory.

Until J16 appears.......Hope you will get those parts from all over the world in war within time.