Need for a 1000 ton Corvette for PN

[BHarwana]

My apologize but one question why not more submarines than a 1000 ton?

 

[Armchair]

My apologize but one question why not more submarines than a 1000 ton?

Hi B. Harwana, I have definitely been advocating small submarines (about 400-500 tons) on here in various threads. But that is a different capability and a different discussion, and deserves its own thread (which it has incidentally). Does that help explain?

 

[BHarwana]

Hi B. Harwana, I have definitely been advocating small submarines (about 400-500 tons) on here in various threads. But that is a different capability and a different discussion, and deserves its own thread (which it has incidentally). Does that help explain?

My point here is that we have Azmat class which is 560 tons and climbing up the ladder we have frigates. If the purpose is to get 1000 tons why not go for submarines? like Azmat class has fast speed faster than 1000 tons and they are very lethal equipped with long range missile. What 1000 tons can bring to the table is longer range for an attack and that can be done by Submarines as Pakistan has SLCM.

I only posted to know what logic you have that 1000 tons will be better than Submarines keeping in mind the Azmat class is already there. Just want to know the benefits 1000 tons can bring over submarines.

 

[Armchair]

My point here is that we have Azmat class which is 560 tons and climbing up the ladder we have frigates. If the purpose is to get 1000 tons why not go for submarines? like Azmat class has fast speed faster than 1000 tons and they are very lethal equipped with long range missile. What 1000 tons can bring to the table is longer range for an attack and that can be done by Submarines as Pakistan has SLCM.

I only posted to know what logic you have that 1000 tons will be better than Submarines keeping in mind the Azmat class is already there. Just want to know the benefits 1000 tons can bring over submarines.

These are different things and play different roles. For instance, if you need curtains for your house and deciding what kind of curtains to get, you don't bring into the discussion whether you should instead buy carpets.

 

[BHarwana]

These are different things and play different roles. For instance, if you need curtains for your house and deciding what kind of curtains to get, you don't bring into the discussion whether you should instead buy carpets.

I totally agree with you and yes I am comparing apples with oranges but keeping in mind the Azmat class the role on 1000 tons is to attack away from shores and in that sense I am bringing in the Submarines. I don't know if I am correct or no but in theory just for the sake of discussion can submarines replace 1000 tons. Just make a brief comparison on the armament and attack capabilities of both.

 

[Armchair]

I totally agree with you and yes I am comparing apples with oranges but keeping in mind the Azmat class the role on 1000 tons is to attack away from shores and in that sense I am bringing in the Submarines. I don't know if I am correct or no but in theory just for the sake of discussion can submarines replace 1000 tons. Just make a brief comparison on the armament and attack capabilities of both.

Hi B. Harwana, the short answer - no submarines cannot replace corvettes in a navy. cheers.

 

[Armchair]

 

[Armchair]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Penguin @Gryphon

These above are what I tried to summarize and I had to make some assumptions. If you can, please do look at it and particularly the cost figures and give me your opinion.

 

[Suff Shikan]

Pakistan Navy needs to focus on two things. First get bigger Frigates and Destroyers which have VLS for both Air Defense as well as long range Cruise Missiles. As for 1000 tonne Frigate instead of focusing on that focus on develop a Missile which has range of around 800 KM can fit into our Azmat Class and other such Missile Boats and can target both enemy ships as well as target on the land.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Suff Shikan @Armchair

We have Babur, do u mean SAM?

 

[Zarvan]

We have Babur, do u mean SAM?

The land version of Babur has range of 700 KM but as of now it can't fit in our ships and Missile Boats but yes we need Missile like Babur with range of 800 KM which can fit on our Naval Ships and Missile Boats and can target both ships on sea and targets on land.

We have Babur, do u mean SAM?

The land version of Babur has range of 700 KM but as of now it can't fit in our ships and Missile Boats but yes we need Missile like Babur with range of 800 KM which can fit on our Naval Ships and Missile Boats and can target both ships on sea and targets on land.

 

[pzfz]

Pak doesn't have the capability nor the vision to do an all-purpose open design "corvette". If it's looking for multi-purpose small boats with overgrown capacity then the Scandinavian navies provide an excellent study. The Fins with their Hamina class missile boats, the Nords with their Skjold class patrol boats, and the Swedes with their Visby class. Fiberglass, weak in protection, but fast and less susceptible to mines and torpedoes.; and provide excellent offensive firepower per tonnage.

A more prudent decision would be to have a system analogous to the Danish Stanflex system. Put modules on everything from OPVs to fleet auxiliary ships.

 

[Suff Shikan]

Pakistan Navy needs to focus on two things. First get bigger Frigates and Destroyers which have VLS for both Air Defense as well as long range Cruise Missiles. As for 1000 tonne Frigate instead of focusing on that focus on develop a Missile which has range of around 800 KM can fit into our Azmat Class and other such Missile Boats and can target both enemy ships as well as target on the land.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Suff Shikan @Armchair

We need something

The land version of Babur has range of 700 KM but as of now it can't fit in our ships and Missile Boats but yes we need Missile like Babur with range of 800 KM which can fit on our Naval Ships and Missile Boats and can target both ships on sea and targets on land.


The land version of Babur has range of 700 KM but as of now it can't fit in our ships and Missile Boats but yes we need Missile like Babur with range of 800 KM which can fit on our Naval Ships and Missile Boats and can target both ships on sea and targets on land.

We should consider building something like Kalibr, i-e 1500km range, or may be future Babur will have more range

 

[ARMalik]

My apologize but one question why not more submarines than a 1000 ton?

Hey mate, although 1000 ton corvettes have a specific role to play, however, I think one area where these smaller ships can really become lethal force multipliers is if they are heavily geared to work in a "netcentric" warfare environment.

 

[Armchair]

Pak doesn't have the capability nor the vision to do an all-purpose open design "corvette". If it's looking for multi-purpose small boats with overgrown capacity then the Scandinavian navies provide an excellent study. The Fins with their Hamina class missile boats, the Nords with their Skjold class patrol boats, and the Swedes with their Visby class. Fiberglass, weak in protection, but fast and less susceptible to mines and torpedoes.; and provide excellent offensive firepower per tonnage.

A more prudent decision would be to have a system analogous to the Danish Stanflex system. Put modules on everything from OPVs to fleet auxiliary ships.

Those Nordic countries have a very different naval environment - their sea is very calm and can field such ships. PN has to face higher sea states and also, can't afford a fiber-glass navy, with high unit costs and lack of value for money. Nor can it go for aluminum hulls. Even the US navy has had problems with those.

PN nor KSEW may not have the vision or capability today, but perhaps if we act positively, discuss, share, who knows, maybe over time some of their officers will also begin to think. There are hosts of navy officers who visit PDF. You never know.

Naval officers traditionally have better long-term vision than army or air force folks. So there is some hope for optimism.

 

[pzfz]

Those Nordic countries have a very different naval environment - their sea is very calm and can field such ships. PN has to face higher sea states and also, can't afford a fiber-glass navy, with high unit costs and lack of value for money. Nor can it go for aluminum hulls. Even the US navy has had problems with those.

PN nor KSEW may not have the vision or capability today, but perhaps if we act positively, discuss, share, who knows, maybe over time some of their officers will also begin to think. There are hosts of navy officers who visit PDF. You never know.

Naval officers traditionally have better long-term vision than army or air force folks. So there is some hope for optimism.

These missile boats won't be going out to the high seas anyways. Creek areas and Balochistan coast at most. Norway faces the toughest seas on earth in the North Sea, yet they see value in the Skjold hiding in the (fjord) inlets which Pakistan has near the Indus delta/Sir Creek and all along the coast in Sonmiani, Ormara, Pasni, Gwadar, and Jiwani.

I'm not saying copy them, but at least take the innovative ideas these small countries come up with and tailor it to Pak's environment. Pak cannot and should not build any of its armed services along conventional lines because it cannot compete with a conventional approach. That is the straight-jacket that Pak needs to shed; the vision and capability will necessarily follow.

Stanflex-like modules are the best bet. You can stick SAMs, SSMs, and PDMSs and their associated sensors on any ship with deck space in the navy/merchant navy as you see fit and the need arises. Distributed lethality.

Sorry, but i don't agree with your statement regarding the navy. They have very valid excuses (neglect and finance matters), but their decisions have been and continue to be extremely short-sided even with their constraints. Worse than the Army or AF imho.