Need for a 1000 ton Corvette for PN

[Armchair]

These missile boats won't be going out to the high seas anyways. Creek areas and Balochistan coast at most. Norway faces the toughest seas on earth in the North Sea, yet they see value in the Skjold hiding in the (fjord) inlets which Pakistan has near the Indus delta/Sir Creek and all along the coast in Sonmiani, Ormara, Pasni, Gwadar, and Jiwani.

I'm not saying copy them, but at least take the innovative ideas these small countries come up with and tailor it to Pak's environment. Pak cannot and should not build any of its armed services along conventional lines because it cannot compete with a conventional approach. That is the straight-jacket that Pak needs to shed; the vision and capability will necessarily follow.

Stanflex-like modules are the best bet. You can stick SAMs, SSMs, and PDMSs and their associated sensors on any ship with deck space in the navy/merchant navy as you see fit and the need arises. Distributed lethality.

Sorry, but i don't agree with your statement regarding the navy. They have very valid excuses (neglect and finance matters), but their decisions have been and continue to be extremely short-sided even with their constraints. Worse than the Army or AF imho.

More technical knowledge on your part is needed to understand what sea states are and how they impact the PN differently than Scandinavian countries, and why hiding in an inlet is not a strategy for a corvette in the PN.

 

[pzfz]

Rest assured i know what sea states are, specifically the rather calm sea of Arabia. Those Scandinavian boats aren't even corvettes, just missile/patrol boats. You could've expanded your train of thought and just say that corvettes don't/shouldn't fit into PN's strategy at all.

 

[Gryphon]

@Armchair

While I did suggest a Gayduk-M like ship, actual acquisitions will most likely be from China (with their numerous designs on offer). IMO, any corvette acquired in the 1000-1200 ton range should be multirole with

Hull Mounted sonar, 2x twin ET52C 324mm torpedoes, Thales Smart-S Mk2 air/surface surveillance radar, 2x quad Harbah anti-ship missiles (range: 300 km), at least 8 VLS cells or Thales VT1 launcher (see Qahir class), 30 mm or 35 mm CIWS.

The hull and superstructure should be made of steel/aluminium (lower cost) and efforts made to induct as many ships as possible, besides increasing number of FAC/FAC-M for enhancing A2/AD capabilities.

 

[Armchair]

@Armchair

While I did suggest a Gayduk-M like ship, actual acquisitions will most likely be from China (with their numerous designs on offer). IMO, any corvette acquired in the 1000-1200 ton range should be multirole with

Hull Mounted sonar, 2x twin ET52C 324mm torpedoes, Thales Smart-S Mk2 air/surface surveillance radar, 2x quad Harbah anti-ship missiles (range: 300 km), at least 8 VLS cells or Thales VT1 launcher (see Qahir class), 30 mm or 35 mm CIWS.

The hull and superstructure should be made of steel/aluminium (lower cost) and efforts made to induct as many ships as possible, besides increasing number of FAC/FAC-M for enhancing A2/AD capabilities.

Hi Gryphon, I will modify the table accordingly.

However, some questions for what you are proposing - all steel is low cost. high cost is having an aluminum superstructure. Very high cost is having other advanced materials as superstructure. Which do you mean?
How will you integrate Harbah with a French system? Do you really want to give France access to your codes? Range of Harbah is 400-500 km minimum.

Who will integrate the Chinese and French systems? France won't let their systems be integrated by the Chinese. Only way is to get the French to integrate. In which case it will be more expensive.

What CIWS are you proposing on your ship?

Helicopter? Hangar?

What about the main gun?

 

[Chimgathar]

We all know that Karachi shipyard is constructing a 1500 Ton ship for PMSA. It is not a stealthy or modern design but it has space available for weapons integration. Karachi shipyard has the capacity and design available, I think it will be a cheaper option for a ship in this class. I could not find a top angle photo.

 

[Gryphon]

However, some questions for what you are proposing - all steel is low cost. high cost is having an aluminum superstructure. Very high cost is having other advanced materials as superstructure. Which do you mean?

Steel hull, aluminium superstructure (like Azmat class)

How will you integrate Harbah with a French system? Do you really want to give France access to your codes? Range of Harbah is 400-500 km minimum.

Who will integrate the Chinese and French systems? France won't let their systems be integrated by the Chinese. Only way is to get the French to integrate. In which case it will be more expensive.

Regarding French-Chinese systems integration, refer

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ttes-with-turkey.479495/page-75#post-10565292

I got the Harbah missile range from here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dimd...hts-of-from-there.548352/page-2#post-10325333

400 or 500 km is possible but which radar will track the target?

What CIWS are you proposing on your ship?

Helicopter? Hangar?

What about the main gun?

2x Type 730B, assuming VLS present. Otherwise, VT-1 launchers atop hangar roof and behind the main gun.

Z-9EC ASW helicopter armed with ET52C torpedoes / GIDS Sea Surge (BAE Systems Mk 11 mod 3) depth charges, hangar yes.

Pakistan Navy Z-9EC with GIDS Sea Surge

Not a fan of main guns, any 76mm will do.

 

[Armchair]

Steel hull, aluminium superstructure (like Azmat class)



Regarding French-Chinese systems integration, refer

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ttes-with-turkey.479495/page-75#post-10565292

I got the Harbah missile range from here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/dimd...hts-of-from-there.548352/page-2#post-10325333

400 or 500 km is possible but which radar will track the target?



2x Type 730B, assuming VLS present. Otherwise, VT-1 launchers atop hangar roof and behind the main gun.

Z-9EC ASW helicopter armed with ET52C torpedoes / GIDS Sea Surge (BAE Systems Mk 11 mod 3) depth charges, hangar yes.

Pakistan Navy Z-9EC with GIDS Sea Surge

Not a fan of main guns, any 76mm will do.

Hi Griphon,

Regarding integrating french and chinese equipment - the example you cite is France integrating Chinese equipment. Not the other way around. Chinese have never been allowed to integrate major french equipment in Chinese docks. You could send the boats to France or to Singapore or some other such place. Or you could try the risky option of doing it in-house at KSEW.

Thank you for specifying some of the equipment fit you want. Even for 300 km range, you need OTH radar, which no ship other than the 54As will have in the PN. Or you can data-link.

You will have a hard time fitting a 1000 ton ship with a hangar and a helicopter and all the other equipment you've suggested. Ship will likely be top-heavy. Perhaps a telescopic hangar could be possible, but real operation of a deck helicopter requires a lot of additional space for equipment, personnel, weapons, working space, etc. You are probably looking at a Damen sized boat.

Regarding the main gun - I agree with you and am not a big fan. My vision is a JF-17 of the seas and as such I want as simple, effective and local a product as possible. OTOH there is a local Pakistani company that makes 35mm high velocity guns. The munition is auto-loading, simple. Perhaps they could put 2 of those in a copula, lengthen the barrel, get some basic stabilization (HIT AK team could help perhaps) and call it a day.

If you go for something basic like the Chinese 76mm gun - it is considerably heavier than the Oto Melara, which could be a problem for your top heavy ship. I'm going to assume you are going with the Chinese gun.

 

[Tank131]

We all know that Karachi shipyard is constructing a 1500 Ton ship for PMSA. It is not a stealthy or modern design but it has space available for weapons integration. Karachi shipyard has the capacity and design available, I think it will be a cheaper option for a ship in this class. I could not find a top angle photo.

That is based on Type 056 whichnis not completely stealthy in the veins of visby, but it is a stealthy corvette (much in the same vein as Sigma corvettes

VISBY

SIGMA

Type 056

So while it is not completely stealth, it is stealthy, and it has a hull mounted sonar, a towed sonar array and has been shown to be quite modifiable. The P18 is and 1800t version with 8 AShM instead of 4 while maintaining the rest of the weaponry. The P18N is an 1800t OPV for nigeria with a 76mm gun, 2 30mm guns and 2 12.7mm guns. The C13b is a 1500t with no hull mounted sonar. The point is the Type 56 design is very modular and versatile. IF PN wants a multimission corvette in the 1000-1500t range then this isnthe best jumping off point. The standard ship cost $52M with 76mm gun, 2 30mm cannon, 4 AShM, 8 cell FL-3000N, AND2 tripe torpedo tubes amd a hull mounted and towed sonar array. Using this a starting point I would increase the size to 1800t and increase the number of the AShM to 8 (ideally Harbah). Get rid of the FL-3000N. In its place put 12 cell Umkhonto VLS for 8 Umkhonto-eir (30km) and 16 quad packed cheetah point defense missiles (10km). If you look at the current deck where FL-3000N sits, there is plenty of room for such a vls.

You can discuss changing the sensors like the long range surface and air search radar thereafter to something like Smart S mk2 or maybe ly-80n aesa.

But i would venture such a corvette/frigate would cost (if having a steel superstructure) in the range of $70-80M/ship.

 

[Armchair]

That is based on Type 056 whichnis not completely stealthy in the veins of visby, but it is a stealthy corvette (much in the same vein as Sigma corvettes

VISBY

SIGMA

Type 056

So while it is not completely stealth, it is stealthy, and it has a hull mounted sonar, a towed sonar array and has been shown to be quite modifiable. The P18 is and 1800t version with 8 AShM instead of 4 while maintaining the rest of the weaponry. The P18N is an 1800t OPV for nigeria with a 76mm gun, 2 30mm guns and 2 12.7mm guns. The C13b is a 1500t with no hull mounted sonar. The point is the Type 56 design is very modular and versatile. IF PN wants a multimission corvette in the 1000-1500t range then this isnthe best jumping off point. The standard ship cost $52M with 76mm gun, 2 30mm cannon, 4 AShM, 8 cell FL-3000N, AND2 tripe torpedo tubes amd a hull mounted and towed sonar array. Using this a starting point I would increase the size to 1800t and increase the number of the AShM to 8 (ideally Harbah). Get rid of the FL-3000N. In its place put 12 cell Umkhonto VLS for 8 Umkhonto-eir (30km) and 16 quad packed cheetah point defense missiles (10km). If you look at the current deck where FL-3000N sits, there is plenty of room for such a vls.

You can discuss changing the sensors like the long range surface and air search radar thereafter to something like Smart S mk2 or maybe ly-80n aesa.

But i would venture such a corvette/frigate would cost (if having a steel superstructure) in the range of $70-80M/ship.

Hi, interesting. Perhaps we need another thread on a 1500-2000 ton corvette (but then there is already the Damen boats, MSA ships, and Ada).

What we are focused on this thread is a 1000 ton ship, focused on a low cost and maximum local content solution.

 

[Tank131]

Hi, interesting. Perhaps we need another thread on a 1500-2000 ton corvette (but then there is already the Damen boats, MSA ships, and Ada).

What we are focused on this thread is a 1000 ton ship, focused on a low cost and maximum local content solution.

For that i think the only politically and financially feasible solutions for the 1000t range would be upscaled Azmat or a Buyan-M class.

Azmat scale up would be likely the cheapest and easiest to pull off as PN is familiar with the manufacturing process and just needs to scale up the processes. Two possibilities in my mind arise.

1) Double the size to ~1200t. With that size you put 8 AshM (instead of 6) a helipad (no hangar , and an 8-12 Cell VLS in place of the CIWS for Umkhonto-eir/cheetah combo (8/16 respectively for 12 cell, 32 cheetah for 8 cell). Add 2 triple torpedo tubes, a hull mounted sonar and a towed array.

2) a more modest (an in my eyes a more cost effective) change would be to increase the size to ~850-900t (increased by 300-350t). With the increased size you add a helipad and hulls mounted sonar as well as a 2 triple torpedo tubes. I think at this size you could also get 8 AShM rather than 6. That is the major structural change. But then you can change the weapons out. Exchange the twin 25mm cannon for a Pantsir-ME and do the same in the rear bt exchanging the AK630 for the Pantsir-ME. These have twin 30mm gatling ciws on each unit in addition to 8 Pantsir-57E6-E missiles with an 18-20km range (depending on source). With essentially 4 CIWS guns and 16 modestly (20km) ranged missiles plus 8AShM, 2 triple torpedo tubes amd a hull mounted sonar with an ASW chopper this would be a good picket corvette at 900t or a good multirole partol corvette.

 

[ARMalik]

In my view, the need for a helicopter on a ship is an antiquated concept and needs to be discarded. A warship should have a bay for an underwater unmanned drone equipped with MAD, etc. The drone needs to be battery powered. Similarly there needs to mini unmanned vertical take of drones for air ops.

 

[Armchair]

For that i think the only politically and financially feasible solutions for the 1000t range would be upscaled Azmat or a Buyan-M class.

Azmat scale up would be likely the cheapest and easiest to pull off as PN is familiar with the manufacturing process and just needs to scale up the processes. Two possibilities in my mind arise.

1) Double the size to ~1200t. With that size you put 8 AshM (instead of 6) a helipad (no hangar , and an 8-12 Cell VLS in place of the CIWS for Umkhonto-eir/cheetah combo (8/16 respectively for 12 cell, 32 cheetah for 8 cell). Add 2 triple torpedo tubes, a hull mounted sonar and a towed array.

2) a more modest (an in my eyes a more cost effective) change would be to increase the size to ~850-900t (increased by 300-350t). With the increased size you add a helipad and hulls mounted sonar as well as a 2 triple torpedo tubes. I think at this size you could also get 8 AShM rather than 6. That is the major structural change. But then you can change the weapons out. Exchange the twin 25mm cannon for a Pantsir-ME and do the same in the rear bt exchanging the AK630 for the Pantsir-ME. These have twin 30mm gatling ciws on each unit in addition to 8 Pantsir-57E6-E missiles with an 18-20km range (depending on source). With essentially 4 CIWS guns and 16 modestly (20km) ranged missiles plus 8AShM, 2 triple torpedo tubes amd a hull mounted sonar with an ASW chopper this would be a good picket corvette at 900t or a good multirole partol corvette.

Oscar suggested that the Azmat class was not structurally suitable for upscaling. I can see why, given that the hull is relatively narrow and propulsion may need to be reworked in a way that could develop complications.

In my view, the need for a helicopter on a ship is an antiquated concept and needs to be discarded. A warship should have a bay for an underwater unmanned drone equipped with MAD, etc. The drone needs to be battery powered. Similarly there needs to mini unmanned vertical take of drones for air ops.

Precisely my man! that is what I wanted to hear! Music to my ears! Kudos to you!

Given the a2d off Pakistani coast, you could simply have a UAV with MAD, torpedoes, etc. An ASW helicopter has about a 1000 kg usable takeoff weapons load. This is easily doable for a shore-based UAV, which can provide an equivalent OTH capability at a fraction of the cost, and saving space, weight, cost, manpower on boats. Allowing light corvettes to be as effective as light frigates, essentially.

USVs / UUVs can just add even greater venom to the mix.

 

[Tank131]

Oscar suggested that the Azmat class was not structurally suitable for upscaling. I can see why, given that the hull is relatively narrow and propulsion may need to be reworked in a way that could develop complications.



Precisely my man! that is what I wanted to hear! Music to my ears! Kudos to you!

Given the a2d off Pakistani coast, you could simply have a UAV with MAD, torpedoes, etc. An ASW helicopter has about a 1000 kg usable takeoff weapons load. This is easily doable for a shore-based UAV, which can provide an equivalent OTH capability at a fraction of the cost, and saving space, weight, cost, manpower on boats. Allowing light corvettes to be as effective as light frigates, essentially.

USVs / UUVs can just add even greater venom to the mix.

Thats a good point, but when i say scale up i mean lenghts and width. In order to sustain a heavier ship you need. To be wider as you said.

The ASW heli not being available is something that you may be able to rework like you said, with UAV, but i think you would have to start from scratch for a uav sub hunter with a MAD. Most ASW choppers dont have MADs but dipping sonar (though some like the SeaHawk do). A UAV with a MAD would have to have it designed from scratch, and the effectiveness of a MAD would be questionable. Their effectiveness (detection range) is directly proportional to the size/length amongst other things, so to have a UAV with an effective MAD it would need to be big or it would need to be right over the sub. The dipping sonar i think would be reasonable and could likely be fitted on some of China's current chopper UAV Like sky saker h300 and AV500W. That with in combo with UUV and the new VLF station would make an effective detection net.

 

[Armchair]

Thats a good point, but when i say scale up i mean lenghts and width. In order to sustain a heavier ship you need. To be wider as you said.

The ASW heli not being available is something that you may be able to rework like you said, with UAV, but i think you would have to start from scratch for a uav sub hunter with a MAD. Most ASW choppers dont have MADs but dipping sonar (though some like the SeaHawk do). A UAV with a MAD would have to have it designed from scratch, and the effectiveness of a MAD would be questionable. Their effectiveness (detection range) is directly proportional to the size/length amongst other things, so to have a UAV with an effective MAD it would need to be big or it would need to be right over the sub. The dipping sonar i think would be reasonable and could likely be fitted on some of China's current chopper UAV Like sky saker h300 and AV500W. That with in combo with UUV and the new VLF station would make an effective detection net.

That's interesting. Perhaps you could use the chopper-uav for dipping sonar and detection, and an aeroplane UAV for sonobuoys / torpedoes / light AShM / OTH detection. Or you could use a USV for detection as well as a firing solution.

Can an aeroplane use a dipping sonar? I have never heard of it, and don't have a clue - so I'd be interested to know.

Also - what about developing a rudimentary SOSUS like system?

 

[Armchair]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

If the US could cover the entire Atlantic and much of the Pacific, and China can cover much of the Pacific and all of the South China Sea, why not develop a very limited detection system to just cover the EEZ?