Need for a 1000 ton Corvette for PN

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi, I want to start this thread to look at a 1000 ton corvette for PN. Given that Azmat is 560 tons and the Damen boats will easily be 2000 tons, and Ada 2500 tons, there is a huge cap in tonnage, a giant hole in exactly the general purpose size suited for PN's A2D strategy.

Questions:
1. Why is PN ignoring this tonnage range?
2. What kind of boat in this range would be ideal? What kind of systems, roles, etc.

Personally for me:
I believe that a 1000-1500 ton corvette should be the mainstay of PN, ideally. 10-20 ships.
Neither the hull of Azmat nor Type 56 is suitable for a variety of reasons.

You are patrolling the extended A2D area - basically Pakistani waters. Ensuring IN cannot get to attack the coast. Perhaps:

Turkish ASW systems, local towed array
8x Harbah
Korkut in the A position
Local PDMS
Probably a version if not every ship, that has an 8x or 16x VLS

Here is my thinking - since they are supporting operations relatively close to shore - they should each be assigned a shore-based UCAV that will fly to their location but be based on land. Each ship should have 2 so there is constant coverage.

Being shore based would significantly simplify operations.

This should be the standard ship of the PN and should also be an export item.

Some time back PN did order.
https://quwa.org/2017/10/31/pakistan-orders-two-corvettes-us-based-swiftships/

 

[syed_yusuf]

Some time back PN did order.
https://quwa.org/2017/10/31/pakistan-orders-two-corvettes-us-based-swiftships/

Now they are not happening

 

[Tank131]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS

If the US could cover the entire Atlantic and much of the Pacific, and China can cover much of the Pacific and all of the South China Sea, why not develop a very limited detection system to just cover the EEZ?

That involves thinking out of the box. I think a SOSUS type system in the Pak EEZ would be a great idea in conjunction with ASW patrol aircraft and surface and subs fleets and the VLF station would give Pakistan a very strong detection net. Beyond this, im not sure why the idea of underwater platforms for anti sub and antiship attack hasnt been explored. In much the way the Babur 3 was tested from an underwater platform, why not scatter such platforms around the EEZ and have them linked to surface ships and shore. They can be activated in wartime to launch surprise attacks on IN ships entering the EEZ (platforms equipped with AShM and torpedoes)

 

[Armchair]

So basically, a SOSUS like system would mean some submarine cables attached to some hydrophones. A few of these could easily ensure detection of the EEZ of any incoming submarine or surface ship. Networked with the naval C4ISR, this would mean, along with the P-3Cs and ATRs, detection is largely taken care of.

Now add to this a UUV, a hull sonar and a towed sonar, torpedos, a UAV with sonobuoys and torpedoes, that to me is enough ASW.

I just don't see the meaning left in $20 - $50 million dollar ASW helicopters, whose housing precariously atop a warship takes up gigantic space, massively increases costs, and require a large additional contingent on board, whose skills are parishable and need constant practice.

I just don't see the value here.

Instead, just KISS - Keep it Simple S>>>

A low-cost boat that has a hull sonar, a towed array, a supporting UUV and armed UAV, has 8x Harbah, torpedo tubes, 8x VLS, 16x PDMS, CIWS. EW. Decoys. What more do you want? What's this fascination with having everything while the enemy outguns and outnumbers you by a gigantic amount?

Build these boats for $60-$70 million, build 20 of these, and along with 54A, F-22P, Milgems, Damen, etc, watch your A2D strategy become impregnable against IN. Vastly reducing the chances of a penetrative naval misadventure, or a marine landing. It would be suicidal to send in an amphibious landing while such a comprehensive defense was present.

Just think about it. That's 160 AShM, 160 VLS, 320 PDMS, 20 CIWS. 20 hull sonars, 20 towed sonars, 120 torpedoes. All networked and supported by air cover. You're actually now in a position to match Indian firepower for the first time, at a bargain basement price.

Yes, these ships can't be used for much more than a2d. So what?

That involves thinking out of the box. I think a SOSUS type system in the Pak EEZ would be a great idea in conjunction with ASW patrol aircraft and surface and subs fleets and the VLF station would give Pakistan a very strong detection net. Beyond this, im not sure why the idea of underwater platforms for anti sub and antiship attack hasnt been explored. In much the way the Babur 3 was tested from an underwater platform, why not scatter such platforms around the EEZ and have them linked to surface ships and shore. They can be activated in wartime to launch surprise attacks on IN ships entering the EEZ (platforms equipped with AShM and torpedoes)

UUVs could also be used to attack Indian ports - Kamikazi style.

Great ideas between!

 

[Tank131]

Just regarding priceing, i dont think you need a helicopter for each corvette but a helipad. Also a corvette that has 8vls cells, 16 pdms, 8 AShM, torpedo tubes and UAV/UUV is not going to be 60-70M. Plus a light torpedo alone is going to be ~250kg. The max payload of something lije AV500W is 120kg. Plus wherr are you going to launch a uav from the corvette (or do you mean land based UAV in which case a modified CH-5 could potentially carry 2-4 light torpedo under wing which could be very interesting if datalinked to other detection assets (subs, surfaces ships with sonar, ASW Aircraf, VLF listening station and a potential SOSUS type system) with a very strong C4I network. 2-3 CH-5 Could potentially patrol the entire eez at all times.

 

[Armchair]

Just regarding priceing, i dont think you need a helicopter for each corvette but a helipad. Also a corvette that has 8vls cells, 16 pdms, 8 AShM, torpedo tubes and UAV/UUV is not going to be 60-70M. Plus a light torpedo alone is going to be ~250kg. The max payload of something lije AV500W is 120kg. Plus wherr are you going to launch a uav from the corvette (or do you mean land based UAV in which case a modified CH-5 could potentially carry 2-4 light torpedo under wing which could be very interesting if datalinked to other detection assets (subs, surfaces ships with sonar, ASW Aircraf, VLF listening station and a potential SOSUS type system) with a very strong C4I network. 2-3 CH-5 Could potentially patrol the entire eez at all times.

A helipad still takes a lot of vital space, and is meaningless unless you have refueling and arming on board, and probably fresh crews. I'd prefer to rather eschew that.

I believe the costs can be kept to about 70 million USD if the VLS and PDMS can be made locally. And since we are planning to substitute the main gun for a local solution (2x. 35mm). I believe that if you produce 20 such ships and locally source these systems, you would have the scale to keep things relatively low cost.

The MK-46 is about 230 kg - I think if we aim for a 1000 kg capable UAV, you'd be in good shape not only in terms of torpedoes but also sonobuoys. Not to mention light AShMs.

And you don't need a satellite for that even, if the shore-based UAV is sent out to a specific location for a handover to a corvette, whereupon the corvette takes over the flight controls. So, within a 50 km radius of a corvette, you'd have a UAV that is being directly operated by the corvette, which itself is datalinked to the PN C4ISR. When combined with PN frigates and a naval task force, you could have 4-5 corvettes in 4 task forces, each led by a 054A.

Each task force could have -

1 054A
1 F-22P
1 Milgem
1 Damen OPV
4-5 local corvettes
2x submarines

You're essentially doubling the firepower of each task force. The corvettes don't need to be as fast as an FAC. They just need to be fast enough to keep up with the task force. They need an endurance of about 30 days.

PN FACs can also come in and out, in support of these task forces, but may not have the capacity to stick with them for long.

If you notice, in each such task force, there is already 4x ASW helicopters (54A, F-22P, Milgem, Damen).

 

[Armchair]

Here is a market opportunity for a 1000 ton corvette in terms of export - its ideally sized to deal with the Iranian swarm-boat strategy in terms of Gulf states. As well as enforcing an arms blockade for Yemen.

It is also ideally sized and priced for a vast majority of navies of this world. Most navies cannot even afford frigates. Its either cheap Chinese ships that have a host of flaws and durability issues, or very expensive western "corvettes" that cost an arm and a leg.

Or to buy hand-me-downs.

There is a very good market for something in-between Western high cost products and cheap Chinese warships. There is a space in the market for a smaller class of rated warships, as even a mediocre warship these days goes for 300 million +.

If you open a contractor that offers Saudis and the UAE 10x corvettes to patrol Yemen / off Iranian coast, offer them as a package deal including manning and operational management, you could make some serious money.

 

[Armchair]

Interesting article:

Who is afraid of the "C" Word - Corvette

Two schools of thought exist on corvette design. The first of which is a smaller, more affordable frigate design suitable for countries that want to project their interests at sea without the capital costs associated with maintaining a proper navy. The second option is a fast missile boat intended for swarming enemy defences in large numbers and drowning their fleet through volume of fire. European navies favour the former. Russia, Iran and China favour the latter.

 

[syed_yusuf]

I think for PN to have a decent 1000+/- ton ship I can only think a good example to follow is bunyan-M a very decent platform and lots of growth build in. No need for help heli pad or helicopter to save cost and design. Add anti air fl3000n. A decent ciws. Two triple torpedo tubes. Good quality electronics and PN could have a good quality 1000tons system around 100mil usd

 

[LKJ86]

Interesting article:

Who is afraid of the "C" Word - Corvette

China isn't interested in missile boats any more, and is building a large number of Type 056.

 

[Armchair]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/who...-solution-to-the-royal-navys-frigate-problem/

I think for PN to have a decent 1000+/- ton ship I can only think a good example to follow is bunyan-M a very decent platform and lots of growth build in. No need for help heli pad or helicopter to save cost and design. Add anti air fl3000n. A decent ciws. Two triple torpedo tubes. Good quality electronics and PN could have a good quality 1000tons system around 100mil usd

Maybe instead of taking the Russian / Chinese / Iranian model OR the Western model, Pakistan can find a middle ground between the two.

So neither a saturation doctrine nor a precision doctrine, but a balance of both.

Neither an armed to the teeth, fast corvette, produced in swarms, nor the corvette as a junior frigate, but a middle path between both.

Once you have such balance, sprinkle disruptive technologies into the mix such as UAVs / USVs / UUVs / Laser. And you just may have a winning combination.

To contextualize:

Pakistan cannot just use missile boats for swarming incoming Indian Navy warships. This is because the Indian Navy can, from standoff ranges, attack Karachi and key installations. This means they have to have some forward presence, but nothing like the typical mission set of the Western navies. So a balance makes sense.

Additionally, some level of saturation is needed, as the Indian ships are well defended. So the Harbah, packed 8x each makes sense vis-a-vis the Saturation Doctrine.

Yet, at the same time, ASW is needed, these can't just be missile boats. This calls for Western Precision Doctrine and sophistication with hull mounted sonar, towed arrays, SOSUS, etc.

A shore-based UAV and a ship-borne copter gives the ship the disruptive technology edge it needs to give it that extra punch to win the battle.

And there you have it - all that's left is to bell the cat.

 

[rana MRL]

Azmat is a 560 ton design now ,,, if MTC make some improvement and iteration in design make it to large as 100-1300 ton keeping this configuartion on large degrees ,, and keeping saar classdevelopment in minds ,, azmat class can have formidable punch,, as incorporating VLS or not can put upgraded AshM like zarb more range and lethality then c802 and keeping main gun and CIWSsystem same and FL 3000N system if I am not wrong is derived from chinese Manpad ,, we haveAnza missile if we can make some changes in designand seeker of it can install it
More importantly about SAMsystem mid range southafrican Ukhomonto system ,, depthcharges
Sensor and processing system like hamina class ,, outsourcing from chinese or turkish system ..
Make Azmat as compact and lethal
Might take time but if will and sone cash it can be done
These are just my speculation ,,,anysuggestion welcome plz no troll and offense ,,,thnx

Pakistan Navy can have a weapon and naval tech development agency for this sole purpose as PAF has AWC , or Expands MTC capability to design naval solutions ,, like we have AZMAT FAC ship design capability we canmodernise it and covert it to multipurpose covertte ,, like Israeli Saar ship designs ,,,

PN can collaborate with Chinese and Turkish counterpart to develop ship combat management systemalthough it would be nice if our organization can do it themselves...CIWS, main naval gun , ShortSAM system