Nationalism as opposed to Religion?

[Zaryanshah]

Why are you in the UK??? Please show some respect to the freedom you take for granted.

It wasn't my choice. I was born here. If I ever get the opportunity I will Insha Allah make Hijrah to another land. For Rasoolallah [SAW] forbade us from residing in Dar ul Harb UNLESS for a reason such as Da'wah.

 

[CometMibro]

BTW what do people think of the scientific miracles of the Quran al Kareem?

I prefer to refer these as well:

- Prophecies (e.g. Surah Rum, Surah Al-Masad)
- Linguistic Miracle

 

[doppelganger]

I think that it worked fairly well. Sure, Muslims aren't following the sunnah of the Prophet right now but if you have a look at the Islamic empire, there were a huge number of different races all united under the name of Islam. It wasn't just the arabs taking control of everything, nor were they discriminating based on race.

I think it's a bad idea to look at Muslims as an example of Islam nowadays as any practicing Muslim will tell you that's an example of how Islam shouldn't be practiced.

I tend to agree with the viewpoint that throughout history, the Arabs have always held sway over the Islamic world. Both politically and spiritually. It is thus not really unthinkable to agree that the spread of Islam was indeed the spread of Arab imperialism through conquest. And the different races did not come together under one faith as a harmonious whole. Rather they were invaded and brought under one umbrella first by force and thence by unquestioning faith

This is history we are talking about.

Today agreed the times have changed. But the racism within the Islamic world is barely under the surface. Need not vitiate the thread by spelling it out. As is the schism you speak of. Its not a new schism. It started on Mohammad's death from what I know, and it continues till today. And it is not a small or recent phenomenon either. It is a schism that polarizes the Islamic world. Which is ironic because the Prophet deemed there to be nothing of the sort.

 

[Zaryanshah]

Teaches wrong embryology but permits inter-marriage. Supposedly a big scientific blunder as Muslims make up for the largest victims of genetic disorders due to intermarriage.

Science in Islam was a work of propaganda funded with petrodollars and awarded to shoddy "good for nothing" scholars and scientists. Today this propaganda has completely ruined lives of thousands of people and has raised a generation of idiots as evident also on PDF!

I have seen these debates about embryology, so no need to tell me about supposed 'errors'' [btw how do you explain the existence of historically accurate names mentioned in the Quran like ''Haman'' which were not even mentioned in the Old Testament.]

And about inter-marriage, yes it is permitted and nearly half my nanyaal in Pakistan is married to cousins. They are all perfectly fine alhamdulillah and many are doctors and engineers. However yes there is an extremely slightly increased chance of genetic problems and due to tis Hazrat Umar radi allahu anhu has gone on record to discourage inter-cousin marriage to breed healthier kids.

 

[CometMibro]

God bless him bro! I had no idea he used to be an atheist. May Allah grant him and all of us Jannah

 

[Zaryanshah]

God bless him bro! I had no idea he used to be an atheist. May Allah grant him and all of us Jannah

Ameen Sumin Ameen

 

[doppelganger]

And about inter-marriage, yes it is permitted and nearly half my nanyaal in Pakistan is married to cousins. They are all perfectly fine alhamdulillah and many are doctors and engineers. However yes there is an extremely slightly increased chance of genetic problems and due to tis Hazrat Umar radi allahu anhu has gone on record to discourage inter-cousin marriage to breed healthier kids.

I think it is a desi thing bro. All of us have the hots for hot cousins. Marrying them though is another thing altogether. Not good for the gene pool.

 

[Zaryanshah]

Teaches wrong embryology but permits inter-marriage. Supposedly a big scientific blunder as Muslims make up for the largest victims of genetic disorders due to intermarriage.

Science in Islam was a work of propaganda funded with petrodollars and awarded to shoddy "good for nothing" scholars and scientists. Today this propaganda has completely ruined lives of thousands of people and has raised a generation of idiots as evident also on PDF!

Please don't tell me that your family doesn't know about your apostasy and is arranging to get you married to a Muslim girl.

 

[CometMibro]

I tend to agree with the viewpoint that throughout history, the Arabs have always held sway over the Islamic world. Both politically and spiritually. It is thus not really unthinkable to agree that the spread of Islam was indeed the spread of Arab imperialism through conquest.

Could you please provide historically accurate sources on the aims of these conquerors? Like just a list of their names, their treatment toward non-arabs as civilians, and their thinking.

And the different races did not come together under one faith as a harmonious whole. Rather they were invaded and brought under one umbrella first by force and thence by unquestioning faith

Could you please provide sources on this so called forced conversion that happened during the expansion of the Islamic empire?

This is history we are talking about.

Today agreed the times have changed. But the racism within the Islamic world is barely under the surface. Need not vitiate the thread by spelling it out. As is the schism you speak of. Its not a new schism. It started on Mohammad's death from what I know, and it continues till today. And it is not a small or recent phenomenon either. It is a schism that polarizes the Islamic world. Which is ironic because the Prophet deemed there to be nothing of the sort.

I see the claim. I don't see the evidence.

 

[doppelganger]

Could you please provide historically accurate sources on the aims of these conquerors? Like just a list of their names, their treatment toward non-arabs as civilians, and their thinking.

There are many sources that agree that Muhammad started off as and was primarily a political leader, and a very good and capable one at that in terms of his first wresting control of Mecca and Medina before sending out his forces to invade Persia.

In fact the early name of the movement, largely political, was Mohammedanism, later changed to Islam.

The treatment of the Persians is pretty well documented, as is the treatment of us Indians.

Could you please provide sources on this so called forced conversion that happened during the expansion of the Islamic empire?

Well, 99.99% of Persia and 33% of India is pretty open source to require sources.

 

[RuheTag]

In this kind of debate I came through this writing which has some valid questions.

One biggest question is... Why it has taken 1400+ years to discover some of the miracles of Quran AFTER some scientists made discoveries through years of hard work.. Is that simply that nobody for 1400 read Quran carefully?

Or are some Muslims quick to claim any scientific discovery from Scientists by interpreting some vague Quranic verses into that discovery?

We have been hearing for decades that all knowledge (scientific, metaphysical, religious, etc.) can be found in the Quran and that specifically the Quran contains all scientific theories. Interestingly, every time a new scientific theory makes the news, Muslims miraculously find the same theory explained in Quran. In fact, some Muslims claim that all possible knowledge is contained in the Quran, be it astronomy, the special theory of relativity, or the dual (wave-particle) nature of light. Fault lines visible on the moon’s
surface are supposed to be a result of the splitting of the heavenly body. It is hardly a surprise that the theory of relativity (probably both the general and special) were found in the Quran AFTER Einstein formulated it. He could have saved a lot of time had been a devout Muslim who read the Quran carefully. But then we hear that Einstein did convert to Islam, just as Newton did. An overly-enthusiastic Muslim on this forum even managed to declare that Pythagoras was Muslim, forgetting that Pythagoras had died before Jesus.

Particle physicists are not the only ones who can benefit from the Quran. For example, by counting the number of times the words water and earth are mentioned in the Quran, one can calculate the Earth’s land-sea ratio. I’m very curious to see what happens when the ice caps melt and the ratio changes. One can find hundreds websites and books which shed light on such topics.
A couple of years ago a member of this forum sent us a link which reported another miracle of the Quran. If one plots the number of verses in a surah against the surah number, the resulting plot somehow shows the Allah and Mohammad written in Arabic. For those interested in seeing the miracle again please visit:

Miracle of the Qur’an – Be careful | Long Live Pakistan

Ever since I was very young I had been told that the Quran is a perfect book and the verses are poetry. So I was pretty shocked when I started reading the Quran for myself and realized that it was highly repetitive and rather boring. It wasn’t poetry at all (except for certain surah towards the end which are rather interesting to read). It seems that half the text is on describing Allah and how great he is. On the other hand, the emphasis on helping the poor and needy is commendable.

I have been told to read the Quran with an open mind. I have tried, really. I know that one should not atomize a verse so I am including the first third of Surah 4 (Nisa-Woman) at the end of the email. I have read the whole surah a number of times and I cannot justify
another interpretation of 4:34. If someone else can, please enlighten me.

There have been numerous attempts to prove and disprove the existence of God. Ibn-Sina and St. Anselm came up with the following argument:
1. God is, by definition, a being greater than anything that can be imagined.
2. Existence both in reality and in imagination is greater than
existence solely in one’s imagination.
3. Therefore, God must exist in reality; if He did not, God would not
be a being greater than anything that can be imagined.
Interestingly, some people still use this argument even though philosophers and logician know that the argument is not sound. But you can’t stop people from wanting to believe and have meaning for their lives.

Others have convinced themselves of God’s existence by accepting the first-cause argument or variations of the intelligent design argument. Muslims are the most vocal when it comes to claiming that the Quran itself is proof of God’s existence. The argument goes as follows:
- The Quran is perfect (perfection is not define)
- The Quran does not any have any contradictions in it (Any contradiction pointed out is generally explained by a very liberal reading of the Quran)
- No human can write a book which is both perfect (whatever it means) and has no contradictions (Newton’s Principia Mathematica is a close second though)
- God promised that the Quran would not change
- The Quran has not changed (no proof given and the thorny issue of the Satanic verses is avoided by issuing a fatwa).
- Thus, the Quran is not human work
- So it must have been written by God.
- Therefore, God exists.
QED.

It should be noted here that Christians have a similar argument about the bible, but Muslims say the bible has been changed and is now trash. Why would God protect one of his books but not the others is beyond me. Muslims urge Christians to read the Quran with open mind and vice-versa.

I recently read Karen Armstrong’s “Holy War: The crusades and their impact on today’s world.” She does a very good job of explaining anti-Semitism and Islamophobia among Christians. The basic theme is that Christian who hate Jews and/or Muslims have grown up on a diet of stories which depicts Muslims as barbarians, uncivilized, stupid people. She claims that by depicting Muslim as equal humans it is possible to reduce the hatred. In other words, people don’t think what they think because they have thought about it and found it to be reasonable. People have opinions because they have been fed those
opinions.

Ask a bunch of teenagers in Islamabad about the Quran and they will say “Yes, it is perfect. It is poetry.” The ask how many of them know Arabic. Ask how many of them have actually read the translation. Get my point??????

Dr. Soofia tried to explain why God punishes humans and why evil exists. Even though I do not accept the Atheist’s argument, Dr. Soofia’a explanation leaves a lot unexplained. If God is omniscient then he knows the future. He knows exactly how we will react to every
situation. If he knows us and knows what are actions will be then what is the point of punishing us in hell. Muslims claim that God gives us a choice, that we have the option between choosing what is right and what is wrong. But if the future is fixed then it is not possible for us to have free-will. And if we don’t have free-will, why are we being
punished for actions that we are not responsible for. This argument does not prove the absence of God but shows that all attempts by Muslims are in vain.

Ali Karim declared that I am in no position to comment on the Quran. Apparently Albert Einstein was not capable of doing that either (even though he understood the theory of relativity). The hate-spewing mulla, of course, has not understood the Quran either. Ahmadis are kafirs and shias are not far behind. The Taliban are just illiterate
fundos and lets not even start with the sufis. So, please please tell me: Who has understood the Quran?

 

[CometMibro]

There are many sources that agree that Muhammad started off as and was primarily a political leader, and a very good and capable one at that in terms of his first wresting control of Mecca and Medina before sending out his forces to invade Persia.

In fact the early name of the movement, largely political, was Mohammedanism, later changed to Islam.

The treatment of the Persians is pretty well documented, as is the treatment of us Indians.

If it's well documented, I'd like to see these facts. Here's an example of religious tolerance among the muslims much later than the Prophet: The Ottoman Empire,

Read about their well known relations with non muslims here:

lostislamichistory. com/non-muslim-rights-in-the-ottoman-empire/

Well, 99.99% of Persia and 33% of India is pretty open source to require sources.

No, it just means a very large number of people left their idolatrous roots to convert to Islam. AFAIK the caste system might have been the reason people left hinduism for Islam during older times.

 

[CometMibro]

In this kind of debate I came through this writing which has some valid questions.

One biggest question is... Why it has taken 1400+ years to discover some of the miracles of Quran AFTER some scientists made discoveries through years of hard work.. Is that simply that nobody for 1400 read Quran carefully?

Or are some Muslims quick to claim any scientific discovery from Scientists by interpreting some vague Quranic verses into that discovery?

The science in the Qur'an is put in there so scientists of the modern day can look into it and say "hmm, there is no way a human being could have written this book" and then convert- people like Keith Moore, for example.

Islam is very much based on striving for education. The scientific verses in the Qur'an serve their function as SIGNS to later generations, not as some guide to give Muslims a head start in science. They're not very useful to a scientist for teaching him science- so it's wrong to use it as some instruction manual for science (which is quite clear anyway).

The article seems pretty angry and irrational btw.

 

[RuheTag]

The science in the Qur'an is put in there so scientists of the modern day can look into it and say "hmm, there is no way a human being could have written this book" and then convert- people like Keith Moore, for example.

Islam is very much based on striving for education. The scientific verses in the Qur'an serve their function as SIGNS to later generations, not as some guide to give Muslims a head start in science. They're not very useful to a scientist for teaching him science- so it's wrong to use it as some instruction manual for science (which is quite clear anyway).

The article seems pretty angry and irrational btw.

So then it is clearly wrong to say that there are many scientific discoveries inside Quran. Well OK, but linking Quran to today's science will clearly cause problems with Islamic faith. Isnt ? I mean, with it beingh faith is fine. But attempt to play down any scientific work or botched attempts to give credit to Quran/islam for any scientific discovery isn't helping the religion either. It would simply dis-credit its followers.

Also, whats that point for those signs if that cant help human kind? And it took 1400 after Quran for the human being to actually discover an anti-biotic which could save life of billions. God could have given a small hint to discover penicillin

 

[CometMibro]

So then it is clearly wrong to say that there are many scientific discoveries inside Quran. Well OK, but linking Quran to today's science will clearly cause problems with Islamic faith. Isnt ? I mean, with it beingh faith is fine. But attempt to play down any scientific work or botched attempts to give credit to Quran/islam for any scientific discovery isn't helping the religion either. It would simply dis-credit its followers.

I agree. Bad habit of some Muslims. The science is accurate but should only be used as signs.

Also, whats that point for those signs if that cant help human kind? And it took 1400 after Quran for the human being to actually discover an anti-biotic which could save life of billions. God could have given a small hint to discover penicillin

Islam is a framework to live the life God wants us to live, and God ordains this framework so that humanity benefits. The guidance is in the Qur'an. It's up to us to follow it, and the rest follows: society becomes good. Here's an example of Islam in practice.

There are many more historical examples of how Islam dealt with people of other faiths. For instance, after 1453 Jews were encouraged to emigrate from Europe. A letter from one Rabbi to his persecuted brethren in Europe urges settlement in the Islamic lands:

"Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver are in our hands. We are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered. Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom ..." [3]

Does this sound like non-Muslims, heck, even Muslims, in Pakistan today? No, but it can happen. I'm telling you.