National Air Defense Command (NADCOM) - Updates & Discussions.

[DJ_Viper]

According to the prime contractor, the solid propellant missile can engage targets at a range of 3.5 to 50km, with interception altitude up to a maximum of 20km. The missiles are old launched and a single shot kill probability of between 0.9 and 0.95 is being claimed.

Sir, this is older generation. Any 4th and 4.5th gen jets can hit targets from beyond 50 KM. You need over 100KM SAMs at the minimum to start to intercept when inbound aircraft are 40-50 KM inside India. That way, you'd force them for evasive maneuvers and if multiple missiles are chasing them and they manage to survive, they range would've become much less as they would've burnt a lot of fuel on afterburners trying to break the missile lock and through maneuvers. Essentially, this means the mission may have to be aborted as once close to the border, they would then face the PAF and other SAM systems, which would burn out remainder of the fuel.

@MastanKhan @Sarge @fatman17 @war&peace @DESERT FIGHTER
"attack continued for two hours, even after Pakistani officials alerted coalition forces to stop",120 minutes air violation and massacring our Soldiers through air attacks and no sign of air defence ?

Sir, sad reality of that incident was that no PAF was called for. Your Army General was busy in getting through different levels of CENTCOM I believe to get to the chief. This area doesn't have any long-range or medium range AD, this area has mountains so a few hundred feet don't count. The action was happening a few hundred feet off the ground with Apache's right on the border of Afghanistan. So if you shot down anything (not that there were proper weapons there to begin with), you would've asked for a USAF retaliation as the assets were technically in Afghan airspace, a KM or so inside.

Before this incident took place, a few minutes before the Apache's showed up, two F-15's flew above this area a few times at 500 feet and strafed the entire area. So at this altitude, there wouldn't have been any radar and SAMS that can even see the threat at this low of an altitude, to really intercept, knowing the hilly terrain and it being right on the border. Last, a few days after this, there was a mid-range SPADA put in there and the American command was told that next time there will be a response. Plus, the little I know, is that each post had a hidden and separate few men contingent with shoulder mounted SAMs put onto every major check post to deal with the helicopters.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan @Sarge @fatman17 @war&peace @DESERT FIGHTER

Why our air defence network did fail during the 2011 NATO ATTACK/Salala attack ?

"attack continued for two hours, even after Pakistani officials alerted coalition forces to stop",120 minutes air violation and massacring our Soldiers through air attacks and no sign of air defence ?

Pakistani troops stationed at the nearby post named "Boulder" engaged the NATO helicopters with anti-aircraft guns. The helicopters soon withdrew.

(That picture is just a example)
View attachment 357639
Pakistani authorities tried to contact their NATO counterparts in an effort to inform them of the situation but the Pakistani request reportedly failed to reach the attacking force. The helicopters returned a second time engaging Boulder border post again. A short while later communication with the NATO commanders was established and the attack was called off. All casualties were from the initial attack on the Volcano border post. Later, Major General Abbas expressed that it was beyond comprehension why the NATO forces returned to attack the second time. And still no sign of PAF in the air !

Hi,

Kiyani / Qamar were both cowards---they had no backbone.

When the U S air craft returned the second time---it was INTENTIONAL MURDER of pakistani troops---.

The first strike could be considered an error---but the second strike was purely murder.

 

[Signalian]

@MastanKhan @Sarge @fatman17 @war&peace @DESERT FIGHTER

Why our air defence network did fail during the 2011 NATO ATTACK/Salala attack ?

"attack continued for two hours, even after Pakistani officials alerted coalition forces to stop",120 minutes air violation and massacring our Soldiers through air attacks and no sign of air defence ?

Pakistani troops stationed at the nearby post named "Boulder" engaged the NATO helicopters with anti-aircraft guns. The helicopters soon withdrew.

(That picture is just a example)
View attachment 357639
Pakistani authorities tried to contact their NATO counterparts in an effort to inform them of the situation but the Pakistani request reportedly failed to reach the attacking force. The helicopters returned a second time engaging Boulder border post again. A short while later communication with the NATO commanders was established and the attack was called off. All casualties were from the initial attack on the Volcano border post. Later, Major General Abbas expressed that it was beyond comprehension why the NATO forces returned to attack the second time. And still no sign of PAF in the air !

This is the Statement from PAF ACM regarding OBL raid on May 2, 2011:

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has accepted the responsibility of air surveillance failure but informed the government that the entry of American helicopters into the Pakistani air space was not detected because the radars deployed on the western borders were not active on May 2. He dispelled the impression that the Pakistani radars were jammed.
This means PAF Radars on western border are present.

Coming to Nov 2011 Salala raid by NATO on Pakistan Army posts, the NATO attack force had following contingent:
2 x AH-64 D
1 x AC-130
2 x F-15E
1 x MC-12W for SIGINT

None is a stealth aircraft. Radars should have been working after May 2, 2011 atleast.

The strafing range of AH-64D 30mm is around 500m whereas 12.7mm AAG range is more than that, around 1000m. This AAG was deployed at one of the two posts which were attacked. The causalities were reported from other post.

The PA post stood any chance if it was equipped with RBS-70. They were later equipped with Anza SAM.

The reason PAF didnt engage NATO is a command failure of Pakistani COAS and ACM unfortunately. They should have known that trusting NATO command after OBL raid was not on the cards anymore and should have taken proactive measures in this regard.

There are different versions to this incident even in Pakistan circles about why NATO command was being contacted instead of an action by PAF. In Pakistan, both Air chief and Naval Chief report or discuss with COAS before taking any decisions of this nature. The authority of COAS is above every uniformed officer of Pakistan no matter what branch or arm. ACM would have consulted COAS to take action, COAS would have told him to wait and that he is trying to talk to NATO command etc, something like this could have happened.

 

[DJ_Viper]

This means PAF Radars on western border are present.

Coming to Nov 2011 Salala raid by NATO on Pakistan Army posts, the NATO attack force had following contingent:
2 x AH-64 D
1 x AC-130
2 x F-15E
1 x MC-12W for SIGINT

None is a stealth aircraft. Radars should have been working after May 2, 2011 atleast..

Sir, I wrote it before. The radars were working but the -15's flew overhead the post for strafing at 500 feet. In a mountainous region, or even on the plains, 500 feet is very low to observe enemy aircraft. It is almost nap of the earth type of flyovers. In a mountainous region, it is much more difficult to detect, due to constant elevations, etc.

The Apache's and the rest were on the edge of the Afghan airspace like a mile away from the check post, and also, a few hundred feet above air. No radar would detect them, unless you had one at or around that post. But the post didn't even have MANPADS from what I've read on multiple place. They now do and that small AD unit is kept separate from the rest of the post (even in a hidden physical location not directly inside major posts). That would deter helicopters I guess.

There was no PAF activity and if there was any detection of any PAF's assets moving, the ELINT/SIGNIT would've jammed the radars. Plus this wasn't a war so its not like it was a constant operation. These things happen very fast and are over soon. Thanks

 

[MastanKhan]

This is the Statement from PAF ACM regarding OBL raid on May 2, 2011:

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has accepted the responsibility of air surveillance failure but informed the government that the entry of American helicopters into the Pakistani air space was not detected because the radars deployed on the western borders were not active on May 2. He dispelled the impression that the Pakistani radars were jammed.
This means PAF Radars on western border are present.

Coming to Nov 2011 Salala raid by NATO on Pakistan Army posts, the NATO attack force had following contingent:
2 x AH-64 D
1 x AC-130
2 x F-15E
1 x MC-12W for SIGINT

None is a stealth aircraft. Radars should have been working after May 2, 2011 atleast.

The strafing range of AH-64D 30mm is around 500m whereas 12.7mm AAG range is more than that, around 1000m. This AAG was deployed at one of the two posts which were attacked. The causalities were reported from other post.

The PA post stood any chance if it was equipped with RBS-70. They were later equipped with Anza SAM.

The reason PAF didnt engage NATO is a command failure of Pakistani COAS and ACM unfortunately. They should have known that trusting NATO command after OBL raid was not on the cards anymore and should have taken proactive measures in this regard.

There are different versions to this incident even in Pakistan circles about why NATO command was being contacted instead of an action by PAF. In Pakistan, both Air chief and Naval Chief report or discuss with COAS before taking any decisions of this nature. The authority of COAS is above every uniformed officer of Pakistan no matter what branch or arm. ACM would have consulted COAS to take action, COAS would have told him to wait and that he is trying to talk to NATO command etc, something like this could have happened.

Hi,

What is missing from the quandry is----there was a Chinook rescue helicopter that came to pickup the " stranded " U S special forces at OBL's residence---after 1 chopper crashed.

When you look at the anomalies in this action---the U S / OBL drama just falls apart.

It took the chinook 30 minutes to fly in and 45 minutes to fly out---. Neither you can hide the noise of this chopper---nor was this chopper a stealth aircraft. It is heavy---it moves slowly---it makes noise---it came---it landed---it took off---and it took its sweet time to fly across the border---.

ACM Qamar lied---he was the weakest link of the Troika---of Kiyani & Pasha---.

 

[Inception-06]

This is the Statement from PAF ACM regarding OBL raid on May 2, 2011:

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has accepted the responsibility of air surveillance failure but informed the government that the entry of American helicopters into the Pakistani air space was not detected because the radars deployed on the western borders were not active on May 2. He dispelled the impression that the Pakistani radars were jammed.
This means PAF Radars on western border are present.

Coming to Nov 2011 Salala raid by NATO on Pakistan Army posts, the NATO attack force had following contingent:
2 x AH-64 D
1 x AC-130
2 x F-15E
1 x MC-12W for SIGINT

None is a stealth aircraft. Radars should have been working after May 2, 2011 atleast.

The strafing range of AH-64D 30mm is around 500m whereas 12.7mm AAG range is more than that, around 1000m. This AAG was deployed at one of the two posts which were attacked. The causalities were reported from other post.

The PA post stood any chance if it was equipped with RBS-70. They were later equipped with Anza SAM.

The reason PAF didnt engage NATO is a command failure of Pakistani COAS and ACM unfortunately. They should have known that trusting NATO command after OBL raid was not on the cards anymore and should have taken proactive measures in this regard.

There are different versions to this incident even in Pakistan circles about why NATO command was being contacted instead of an action by PAF. In Pakistan, both Air chief and Naval Chief report or discuss with COAS before taking any decisions of this nature. The authority of COAS is above every uniformed officer of Pakistan no matter what branch or arm. ACM would have consulted COAS to take action, COAS would have told him to wait and that he is trying to talk to NATO command etc, something like this could have happened.

Hi,

What is missing from the quandry is----there was a Chinook rescue helicopter that came to pickup the " stranded " U S special forces at OBL's residence---after 1 chopper crashed.

When you look at the anomalies in this action---the U S / OBL drama just falls apart.

It took the chinook 30 minutes to fly in and 45 minutes to fly out---. Neither you can hide the noise of this chopper---nor was this chopper a stealth aircraft. It is heavy---it moves slowly---it makes noise---it came---it landed---it took off---and it took its sweet time to fly across the border---.

ACM Qamar lied---he was the weakest link of the Troika---of Kiyani & Pasha---.

Related to the decisions and handling during the Salala attack by ACM Qamar, Kiyani und Pasha I am wondering how such characters get the seat to lead a whole perfect working military machine. I guess the moral and pride which this Gentlemen represented during the Salala incident was totally against the feelings and opinion of people of Pakistan and the lower Ranks in the Military.

 

[CHI RULES]

It is better to focus at present instead of past or future. The ground reality is PA lacks integrated air defense layers . Modern anti stealth radars still to be inducted though we may have got few with LY80 and from other sources. We do n't have high altitude SAMs as claimed by few. Even medium range SAMs are in limited number.

We should at least have few batteries of HQ9 and deploy them around Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi along with Gawadar. Meanwhile number of LY80SAMs should be increased and deployed around our main cantonments power sources.

We should talk about anti stealth radars and other SAM options rather then crying over Salala.

 

[Inception-06]

It is better to focus at present instead of past or future. The ground reality is PA lacks integrated air defense layers . Modern anti stealth radars still to be inducted though we may have got few with LY80 and from other sources. We do n't have high altitude SAMs as claimed by few. Even medium range SAMs are in limited number.

We should at least have few batteries of HQ9 and deploy them around Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi along with Gawadar. Meanwhile number of LY80SAMs should be increased and deployed around our main cantonments power sources.

We should talk about anti stealth radars and other SAM options rather then crying over Salala.

Ki baat karta he stealth here stealth there bla bla bla

You have no sense of Pride, Moral and Military History ! We have the right to cry, what does help high tech, when you can't use that because our leadership lacks in courage, we must discuss the past in detail and should never forget it, to have greater and better future !

 

[MastanKhan]

It is better to focus at present instead of past or future. The ground reality is PA lacks integrated air defense layers . Modern anti stealth radars still to be inducted though we may have got few with LY80 and from other sources. We do n't have high altitude SAMs as claimed by few. Even medium range SAMs are in limited number.

We should at least have few batteries of HQ9 and deploy them around Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi along with Gawadar. Meanwhile number of LY80SAMs should be increased and deployed around our main cantonments power sources.

We should talk about anti stealth radars and other SAM options rather then crying over Salala.

Hi,

A lot of us use this term " forget the past " freely without understanding the concept behind it.

When it is about the issues of your personal live---the bitterness of the past---the grudges---the hardships that one goes thru---in that case---it is better to forget the past and move ahead with life.

But when it comes to COWARDICE---a lack of a backbone in the top brass---deceit---deception & connivance---you don't want to forget about those things.

These are the foundations that the building sits upon---.

So---if you have not taken the cowardice out of the generals---whatever LEEPA POCHI / whitewash that you may recommend---ain't gonna cure the core problem.

 

[Awan68]

Hi,

First of all---why would you even " suggest " " not attacking israel " in the first place---and in the next breath you talk of befriending israel---the word attack and israel should be deleted out of the pakistani vocabulary.

Can you guys simply leave israel out of discussion when talkign about fighting someone.

I guess you are not old enough to understand that CHEAP is bad---it has always been bad and it will always be bad---.

Anything that is good---does not come cheap---you have to pay a price for it.

A superior aircraft will gain air superiority by the default of its DESIGN FUNCTION---.

As a brick laying machine lays rows of bricks---and as a road roller compresses the dirt and as a bull dozer excavates dirt and as a carpenter builds items from wood and as a diesel locomotive pulls a train---an air superiority / air dominance fighter aircraft pulverizes the enemy aircraft and enemy defense installations to gain superiority over enemy air space---.

And again---that is the default function of its design.






Hi,

The only way to stop india is for pakistan to have aggressive designs---. It needs shiny new toys---not many of them.

Just 2---2 1/2 sqdrns and 4 sqdrns of JH7B's---air launched babur cruise missiles and my indian neighbors would be singing a new tune---which would be much more peaceful.

Paf is run and managed by gutless cowards whose only interest is their children's business ventures.

Without pakistan have a potent strike force---india would never allow pakistan to develop---it will always bring ourt one thing or another and keep pakistan bogged down.

And you guys are lucky---the fools did not listen to my advice or we would have been running circles around the indian dramas---.

Whats with u n ur affair with israel??, israel is a sworn enemy and someday we will have a confrontation, no one cares about the stupid opinions of a fake id or a sissy israel loving liberal, the establishment know this already and after india their main focus is always israel and no Paf is notrun by gutless cowards, paf is recognized as one if the most potent airforces around in way of professionalism, tactics and skill, we dont have shiny toys cause we dont have a gleaming economy, even with crippling economic constraints they have managed pretty well uptil now, when the economy improves which is a matter of time by the way we will go for big ticket items...

 

[mrrehan]

In an interview with the Global Times newspaper, Rao Qamar Suleman, air chief marshal of the Pakistan Air Force has confirmed the rumors that Pakistan Air Force will purchase up to four Chinese Surface-to-Air Missiles to meet its airdefence needs.



Air Chief Marshal Rao Suleman has said that Pakistan air force is evaluating, different Chinese surface-to-air missiles for the purchase of 3 to 4 SAM systems. One of the systems under evaluation is "HQ-18"surface-to-air missile system.

As per Jane's Defence weekly Hong Qi-18 (HQ-18) surface to air missile system is Chinese version based on the S-300 that is also known as SA-12A "Gladiator". HQ-18 system has a rand of 100 km and it can be used against short-range ballistic and cruise missiles as well as against aircraft.

Another surface to air missile that may be under consideration is China's indigenously developed HQ-12 / KS-1A SAM. These surface-to-air missiles are available with two engagement radars H-200 phased array radar and SJ-231 phased array radar.

The SJ-231 radar system for the KS-1A/HQ-12 SAM system is based on the on the HT-233 PESA engagement radar which is associated with the advance Chinese surface-to-air missile system HQ-9 / FD-2000. SJ-231 is a self propelled radar.
China's indigenously developed HQ-12 / KS-1A missile is a single stage missile that uses the solid propellant. It has very short span delta wing design that is very much like that of the US Hawk SAM. KS-1A Missiles uses the rail launchers. Depending upon the target’s speed maximum range of KS-1A varies from 38-50km. It can be used against targets flying as high as 27000m and as low as 300m.




Pakistan Military Review: Pakistan Air Force to Purchase 4 Chinese SAM Systems

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

KS-1A

HQ-18

This is because there was no reliable delivery system for Indian nuclear weapon still mature enough and Indian purchase of Rafale is some what capable of the job. In order to counter threat, Pakistan have to have stronger air defence system.

 

[MastanKhan]

Whats with u n ur affair with israel??, israel is a sworn enemy and someday we will have a confrontation, no one cares about the stupid opinions of a fake id or a sissy israel loving liberal, the establishment know this already and after india their main focus is always israel and no Paf is notrun by gutless cowards, paf is recognized as one if the most potent airforces around in way of professionalism, tactics and skill, we dont have shiny toys cause we dont have a gleaming economy, even with crippling economic constraints they have managed pretty well uptil now, when the economy improves which is a matter of time by the way we will go for big ticket items...

Hi,

Keep on thumping your chest---ain't gonna work---.

 

[Awan68]

Hi,

Keep on thumping your chest---ain't gonna work---.

Rarely does on people with coconuts for heads.

 

[Gryphon]

According to analyst Haris Khan of Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, Pakistan will soon integrate recently inducted FM-90 SR-SAM with a Chinese ground-based 30mm CIWS.

The 30mm AD system Haris is referring to is likely the LD2000 Ground-Based CIWS offered by Norinco.

LD2000 Ground-Based CIWS.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Hi,

A lot of us use this term " forget the past " freely without understanding the concept behind it.

When it is about the issues of your personal live---the bitterness of the past---the grudges---the hardships that one goes thru---in that case---it is better to forget the past and move ahead with life.

But when it comes to COWARDICE---a lack of a backbone in the top brass---deceit---deception & connivance---you don't want to forget about those things.

These are the foundations that the building sits upon---.

So---if you have not taken the cowardice out of the generals---whatever LEEPA POCHI / whitewash that you may recommend---ain't gonna cure the core problem.

Sir, what do you think will be the reaction of current hierarchy of CAS & COAS, if anything like salala happens in the future?
I am pretty sure about Raheel, he would not have hesitated in going after NATO, but what about qamar bajwa, how do you interpret him?