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In one of his lectures in India, he was very sad about partion and that his family was forcely evacuated from thier hometown in India. He also entertained the notion of united India and said something about Pakistan being irrelevant since the Islamic system was not implemented with the founders calling it "republic of Pakistan".

He of course couldn't outright say "partition was wrong" for obvious reasons.

I too hoped that that Quad lived a while longer, just so that all this confusion about his views didn't plague us to day, secularism or sharia etc etc... But I don't see why some people think that he wanted anything to do with Islam when he wasn't even a Good Muslim himself, definately a good human without doubt. So even if he did want an Islamic state, he would be like most of us Muslims today who accept everything in the Quran and Sunnah to be 100% true and accurate without actually having read it- Just like everyone went crazy over Rushdie without even being able to quote one word from the Satanic verses as they hadn't read it.
 
Atleast with qaid he was not corrupt. Today we have full time scholars lecturing people but behind the scenes, having party with mujra girls and collecting charity money and buy luxury good with it.It was important Pakistan was born we do not want be dominated by hindu rss who just will cause problems, deprive us of our rights, economically,socially, culturally,politically, take our land and push us into miserable poverty and rapes. just take look at the dalits they have to eat rats, their women have to serve higher caste for pleasure, wash other people clothes, eat food that is thrown away. migrating from India many Muslims were killed to stop their migration. Pakistan existence was vital for our survival. zindabad.
 
In one of his lectures in India, he was very sad about partion and that his family was forcely evacuated from thier hometown in India. He also entertained the notion of united India and said something about Pakistan being irrelevant since the Islamic system was not implemented with the founders calling it "republic of Pakistan".

He of course couldn't outright say "partition was wrong" for obvious reasons.

I too hoped that that Quad lived a while longer, just so that all this confusion about his views didn't plague us to day, secularism or sharia etc etc... But I don't see why some people think that he wanted anything to do with Islam when he wasn't even a Good Muslim himself, definately a good human without doubt. So even if he did want an Islamic state, he would be like most of us Muslims today who accept everything in the Quran and Sunnah to be 100% true and accurate without actually having read it- Just like everyone went crazy over Rushdie without even being able to quote one word from the Satanic verses as they hadn't read it.

Yaraaa he was the sort of Muslim that I am - It kills me to go for the Friday prayers & were it not for my Mama giving me a beating & then going all mushy on...I still wouldn't go. As a general rule I don't pray & I frankly don't give a wooden nickle about religion in general ! And yet as paradigmatic as it maybe - I'm a fierce defender of the Shariah & the concept of an Islamic State ! So I'm not a good Muslim either but I'm all for it !

Plus Jinnah Sahib was deeply influenced by Iqbal & there is even a quote by him in which he says that he says about Iqbal 'His views were in deep consonance with my own & had made me arrive at the same conclusion as he did' (Hector Bolitho - Jinnah, the Creator of Pakistan). You could also go through two letters written by Iqbal to Jinnah Sahib (Iqbal to Jinnah: two letters, 1937) & see for yourself how laced with religiosity in particular political Islam they are. If it is true, as Hector Bolitho mention in the same book, that there a drawer in Jinnah Sahib's study table where he kept Iqbal's letters tied up in a bundle & cherished them then I believe that we may also be able to infer that Jinnah Sahib agreed with the Allama when it came to the Political Dimensions of Islam.

Having said I feel compelled to point out that the Allama was anything but your local mosque cleric & one who, as per some reading of his, loathed the hypocrisy of the Mullah ! He was a liberal & a democrat himself but also one who believed in the political, economic & the jurisprudential side of Islam as an alternative to be nurtured & presented to the people to either accept or to reject like any other system out there. It appears that Jinnah Sahib agreed with it when he said : “The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on the true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice.” (at the inauguration of the State of Bank of Pakistan) & later '....you are voicing only my sentiments & the sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan will be based on the pure foundations of social justice & Islamic Socialism not other isms' (Radio Broadcast in Dhaka '48). there are of course numerous other speeches by both Iqbal & Jinnah Sahib which makes it easier for us to understand that they may have wanted some sort of Political, Social, Economic & Jurisprudential role of Islam in what became Pakistan but which is not to say that they wanted anything close to the regressive Saudi or Iranian regime or even the dark times we had under Zia ul Haq where Islam was imposed instead of growing organically through the democratic process whereby people sit, debate, agree, disagree, refine & vote as is the Koranic injunction which goes something to the effect of "Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance (are praised) " (Koran 42:38).

Khair I'm anything but a scholar on this one so I'd rather not comment further on ! Either way if he wanted Pakistan to be a Secular State he could have atleast mentioned it or if not him then at least his Sister or Iqbal or Liaquat or one of his contemporaries ! God knows why they didn't even after Pakistan was created ! I think they probably wanted a State where even this unnatural condition 'No Religion in Politics even if People decide through their democratic voice should be allowed' wouldn't exist & the natural course of democracy take its route whereby if a person says brings Islam, Capitalism, Marxism, Social Democracy or whatever & puts it before the people, he should have the right to make his case & then let the people decide what they want ! If democracy is what we've come up with as a mechanism to determine 'right & wrong' or 'acceptable or unacceptable' at a collective level then it should follow that whatever the people decide for themselves should be sworn in irrespective of whether it comes from Islam, Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes or Santa Claus - Let the People decide !

Khair...lets not spoil the Naswar Thread !

And do consult your alter-ego Zarvan on this one ! He would be able to guide you better ! :rofl:

P.S I love Quaid-e-Azam more than my own parents or my siblings & not because he wanted an Islamic or a Secular Pakistan for thats not even important but because he gave me the chance - nay the privilege of calling myself a 'Pakistani' & he spent his entire life & whatever remained off his weak body & yet strong soul for that cherished goal. I love him so much.
 
Yaraaa he was the sort of Muslim that I am - It kills me to go for the Friday prayers & were it not for my Mama giving me a beating & then going all mushy on...I still wouldn't go. As a general rule I don't pray & I frankly don't give a wooden nickle about religion in general ! And yet as paradigmatic as it maybe - I'm a fierce defender of the Shariah & the concept of an Islamic State ! So I'm not a good Muslim either but I'm all for it !

Plus Jinnah Sahib was deeply influenced by Iqbal & there is even a quote by him in which he says that he says about Iqbal 'His views were in deep consonance with my own & had made me arrive at the same conclusion as he did' (Hector Bolitho - Jinnah, the Creator of Pakistan). You could also go through two letters written by Iqbal to Jinnah Sahib (Iqbal to Jinnah: two letters, 1937) & see for yourself how laced with religiosity in particular political Islam they are. If it is true, as Hector Bolitho mention in the same book, that there a drawer in Jinnah Sahib's study table where he kept Iqbal's letters tied up in a bundle & cherished them then I believe that we may also be able to infer that Jinnah Sahib agreed with the Allama when it came to the Political Dimensions of Islam.

Having said I feel compelled to point out that the Allama was anything but your local mosque cleric & one who, as per some reading of his, loathed the hypocrisy of the Mullah ! He was a liberal & a democrat himself but also one who believed in the political, economic & the jurisprudential side of Islam as an alternative to be nurtured & presented to the people to either accept or to reject like any other system out there. It appears that Jinnah Sahib agreed with it when he said : “The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on the true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice.” (at the inauguration of the State of Bank of Pakistan) & later '....you are voicing only my sentiments & the sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan will be based on the pure foundations of social justice & Islamic Socialism not other isms' (Radio Broadcast in Dhaka '48). there are of course numerous other speeches by both Iqbal & Jinnah Sahib which makes it easier for us to understand that they may have wanted some sort of Political, Social, Economic & Jurisprudential role of Islam in what became Pakistan but which is not to say that they wanted anything close to the regressive Saudi or Iranian regime or even the dark times we had under Zia ul Haq where Islam was imposed instead of growing organically through the democratic process whereby people sit, debate, agree, disagree, refine & vote as is the Koranic injunction which goes something to the effect of "Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance (are praised) " (Koran 42:38).

Khair I'm anything but a scholar on this one so I'd rather not comment further on ! Either way if he wanted Pakistan to be a Secular State he could have atleast mentioned it or if not him then at least his Sister or Iqbal or Liaquat or one of his contemporaries ! God knows why they didn't even after Pakistan was created ! I think they probably wanted a State where even this unnatural condition 'No Religion in Politics even if People decide through their democratic voice should be allowed' wouldn't exist & the natural course of democracy take its route whereby if a person says brings Islam, Capitalism, Marxism, Social Democracy or whatever & puts it before the people, he should have the right to make his case & then let the people decide what they want ! If democracy is what we've come up with as a mechanism to determine 'right & wrong' or 'acceptable or unacceptable' at a collective level then it should follow that whatever the people decide for themselves should be sworn in irrespective of whether it comes from Islam, Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes or Santa Claus - Let the People decide !

Khair...lets not spoil the Naswar Thread !

And do consult your alter-ego Zarvan on this one ! He would be able to guide you better ! :rofl:

wah wah YARAAAA i just read the first paragraph saw spitting image of myself. "would not give a wooden nickel" :bounce: me n u can go long way for friendship.
 
Shut up you kaafirs. :rofl:

am not kaafir but mum does have to force me to go. for me it peace we happy not fighting over stupid chicken feed. just how one feels when he goes to those mountains in Pakistani and sit by the river and watches the river and birds all kind of BIRDS hint hint.
 
Yaraaa he was the sort of Muslim that I am - It kills me to go for the Friday prayers & were it not for my Mama giving me a beating & then going all mushy on...I still wouldn't go. As a general rule I don't pray & I frankly don't give a wooden nickle about religion in general ! And yet as paradigmatic as it maybe - I'm a fierce defender of the Shariah & the concept of an Islamic State ! So I'm not a good Muslim either but I'm all for it ! ............

Summary: I want others to do what I myself cannot. Pardon me, but your hypocrisy is showing. :D
 
am not kaafir but mum does have to force me to go. for me it peace we happy not fighting over stupid chicken feed. just how one feels when he goes to those mountains in Pakistani and sit by the river and watches the river and birds all kind of BIRDS hint hint.

According to Mullah Chaudhry saab, that's 97 lashes for you.
 
Armstrong, I don't really think he needed to use the word secularism. He literally described no religion in politics here:
Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state

Also a few smart people can convince you of any ideology, sorry but it's gullable of him to accept the implementation of any political system just based on a few personal correspondences, this was in comparison to his years of in depth studying British secular law.

Also, I think 99.99% Muslims who want sharia and political Islam don't pratices it or haven't read much on it.:P

Anyway has hyperion got back from holiday?
 
pure foundations of social justice & Islamic Socialism not other isms' (
he said something like islamic socialism in one of his speech.

“The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on the true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice.” (at the inauguration of the State of Bank of Pakistan) & later '....you are voicing only my sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan will be based on t

Armstrong just quoted it in post 8346
 
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