N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Unfortunately this deal will set the tone for future collaboration between China and Pakistan. Why not execute this potential dual use technology in a manner that is acceptable to IAEA and also get their approval.

The deal is 'acceptable' to the IAEA so long as IAEA safeguards apply to the facility in question, as is the case with the first two Chashma reactors, and as has been proposed for these two.

So the IAEA should have no issue with the deal, since it had no issues with the first two.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pak wants the deal because India has one.

Since you agree that Pakistan needs energy, and that its rapidly increasing population will in fact require even more energy, then what exactly is the problem with the sentiment quoted in your post above?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is not a problem. Pakistan if it wants a nuclear deal , can have it but should stop the back door entry approach.

The NSG has already violated its own rules (no nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories) when it granted India an exemption after US arm-twisting. So unless the NSG comes up with specific rules on how nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories is to be conducted, what the conditions are to be etc. and applies those rules and conditions uniformly, the 'back door' has been used already with the Indian deal.

 

[TechLahore]

Agreed. Don't use the back door approach. Stop taking shortcuts and negotiate a deal with the world body and you will have a deal. The only reservation is the approach taken by Pakistan.

Since "backdoor approach" is not a technical term and merely rhetoric you're spouting, there's no reason for the above to be taken seriously.

An army general asks for a nuclear deal in US of A and is part of a diplomatic mission. Clearly, not a good starting point to get a deal.

Be specific. Are you suggesting that this was the first instance of Pakistan asking the US for a nuclear deal?

 

[RescueRanger]

The NSG has already violated its own rules (no nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories) when it granted India an exemption after US arm-twisting. So unless the NSG comes up with specific rules on how nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories is to be conducted, what the conditions are to be etc. and applies those rules and conditions uniformly, the 'back door' has been used already with the Indian deal.

Excellent AM, thank you for bringing this up i actually forgot to mention the very same in my previous post!

 

[ramu]

The deal is 'acceptable' to the IAEA so long as IAEA safeguards apply to the facility in question, as is the case with the first two Chashma reactors, and as has been proposed for these two.

So the IAEA should have no issue with the deal, since it had no issues with the first two.

Wrong. The deal cannot go thru between a country that is a signatory and a no signatory. If such a deal has to go through, Pakistan has to get an exemption just like India.

 

[ramu]

Since "backdoor approach" is not a technical term and merely rhetoric you're spouting, there's no reason for the above to be taken seriously.

Be specific. Are you suggesting that this was the first instance of Pakistan asking the US for a nuclear deal?

We would not have had pages and pages of discussion on "Concern" from India if this was not to be taken seriously. Don't write nonsense.

Pakistan asking US for a nuclear deal after India got one is natural. Pakistan wants to be treated like India in the world. Does that have anything to do with the discussion about "Indian concerns to the nuclear deal" ?

 

[PracticalGuy]

My standing on this forum is not at debate here. So once again please refrain from petty squabbling and stay on topic.

In your post you clearly stated that Pakistan is seeking the tech because of India… Are you going against your own statement. You also did not discuss any of the merits for the Pakistani argument for wanting additional reactors.

As for the meaningless rhetoric? Posting facts seems rhetoric to you, then I’m afraid we have nothing to discuss. Kindly move along!


P.S.: It is also not nice to post wall's of text. Not very good for the eyes.

ok I think you still didnt get my point ..let me make it simple to u..

why does pakistan want nuclear deal now?

until recently pakistan (and all other non NPT members) couldnt have imagined getting a nuclear deal with out being signatories of the NPT.
but it came as a rude shock to Pakistan(and to most of the world) by seeing the hard core pro-indian bush admn "granting" such a deal to india even though the latter being a non signatory to NPT..

This made pakistan to ask for the similar deal with a justification that if india can have it why not pakistan? and after being rebuked by the now US administration (which i think wouldnt have granted this deal to india in the first place if it was in the power then) pak being an active partner in WOT and a major non nato ally couldnt take it and approached it's all weather friend China for the deal.. and china being china granted it...

all this should be clear enough for all if they see things in an unbiased manner rather than with a nationalistic jingoism...

now am asking u again.. did i ever oppose the deal? or did i ever support the deal?

now tell me.. why didnt pakistan ask for this deal before india?

P.S: Hopefully my spacing of the paragraphs is legible enough to u now..

 

[ramu]

The NSG has already violated its own rules (no nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories) when it granted India an exemption after US arm-twisting. So unless the NSG comes up with specific rules on how nuclear trade with non-NPT signatories is to be conducted, what the conditions are to be etc. and applies those rules and conditions uniformly, the 'back door' has been used already with the Indian deal.

NSG has every right to amend the its rules just as India or Pakistan has an ability to modify its constitution by democracy. What you call violation is the progressive change to keep up with the time.

Why is Pakistan shying away from getting such an exemption for itself given that India has already has defined a path to achieve this ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wrong. The deal cannot go thru between a country that is a signatory and a no signatory. If such a deal has to go through, Pakistan has to get an exemption just like India.

You are confusing the NSG with the IAEA I think, and the NSG has no provisions for 'exemptions'. If the NSG has provisions for exemptions, would you mind quoting the relevant rules and applicable conditions of the NSG as the pertain to non-NPT signatories, so that non-NPT signatories know what they have to do in order to get these exemptions?

If there are no rules and conditions governing 'exemptions', pertaining to non-NPT States, then the Indian exemption is itself in a way 'illegal' and a 'back door' deal, and therefore there are no rules that apply to any State wishing to participate in nuclear trade. Once the rules were broken for India's sake, the NSG lost the moral ground to argue against any of the other non-NPT States engaging in nuclear trade.

Also, you may want to read this backgrounder on the NSG in this link that I posted on the other thread:

China, Pakistan, and the Nuclear Suppliers Group - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

None of the NSG rules are binding on any of the member nations.

 

[TechLahore]

I too agree that pakistan needs energy like yesterday.. but when did it get the "idea" of nuclear deal? ..only after it saw India pulled off a succesfull one... and thats what i was implying in my earlier post.. Pak wants the deal because India has one... now "think" again with a sane mind removing all ur bias and meaningless rhetoric..

First of all, Pakistan-China cooperation on Nuclear power plants goes much farther back than the US-India nuclear deal. Second, the Pakistani and Chinese position is that the current engagement was grandfathered in at the time China joined the NSG in 2004. These nuclear cooperation discussions and projects were already underway prior to 2004.

Also, let me point to a US-tilted resource on the subject, the council on foreign relations (url below). Even prior to China and Pakistan announcing that they will be moving forward on this deal, analysts and observers in the US were already taking the position that the US-India deal was a threat to China, and that China would see it this way. It is a statement of the obvious, and shouldn't come as a surprise to you that China doesn't like India being used as a pawn by the US... It stands to reason that China will counter these moves. Here is part of the analysis I am referring to:

The U.S.-India Nuclear Deal - Council on Foreign Relations

You need to see Chinese actions not just in the India-Pakistan context, but in the context of overall Chinese interests and US-China jockeying. This deal will happen.

As for the NPT, here is what the CFR had to say about the India-US nuclear deal's affect on that treaty:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9663/usindia_nuclear_deal.html#p7

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

NSG has every right to amend the its rules just as India or Pakistan has an ability to modify its constitution by democracy. What you call violation is the progressive change to keep up with the time.

Please show me where exactly the rules were 'amended' in the NSG charter or what have you.

Why is Pakistan shying away from getting such an exemption for itself given that India has already has defined a path to achieve this ?

Because the 'path defined' was discriminatory, with no set rules or conditions that the other non-NPT states could use as benchmarks. In essence the US and others arm twisted the NSG States to issue an exemption because 'they wanted it', and not because there were any set metrics or criteria that qualified.

If there are any metrics that the NSG has 'amended', that can show us how exemptions are governed, then please provide them.

 

[ramu]

You are confusing the NSG with the IAEA I think, and the NSG has no provisions for 'exemptions'. If the NSG has provisions for exemptions, would you mind quoting the relevant rules and applicable conditions of the NSG as the pertain to non-NPT signatories, so that non-NPT signatories know what they have to do in order to get these exemptions?

If there are no rules and conditions governing 'exemptions', pertaining to non-NPT States, then the Indian exemption is itself in a way 'illegal' and a 'back door' deal, and therefore there are no rules that apply to any State wishing to participate in nuclear trade. Once the rules were broken for India's sake, the NSG lost the moral ground to argue against any of the other non-NPT States engaging in nuclear trade.

Also, you may want to read this backgrounder on the NSG in this link that I posted on the other thread:

China, Pakistan, and the Nuclear Suppliers Group - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

None of the NSG rules are binding on any of the member nations.

Yes it is the NSG.

This is for your use :

According to analysis by Mark Hibbs, senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, China has several options to export the reactors. China can formally request an exemption from NSG guidelines for the trade, as the United States received for its nuclear trade with India in 2008, or China can claim the export is “grandfathered” by a previous agreement with Pakistan signed before joining the NSG.

Source : China-Pakistan Nuke Deal Under Intense Scrutiny | 2point6billion.com - Foreign Direct Investment in Asia

 

[SBD-3]

This dosent answer My question

Nothing will answer your question....cuz you haven't asked any question....and btw, most of the posters won't bother about such comments

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

ok I think you still didnt get my point ..let me make it simple to u..

why does pakistan want nuclear deal now?

until recently pakistan (and all other non NPT members) couldnt have imagined getting a nuclear deal with out being signatories of the NPT.
but it came as a rude shock to Pakistan(and to most of the world) by seeing the hard core pro-indian bush admn "granting" such a deal to india even though the latter being a non signatory to NPT..

This made pakistan to ask for the similar deal with a justification that if india can have it why not pakistan? and after being rebuked by the now US administration (which i think wouldnt have granted this deal to india in the first place if it was in the power then) pak being an active partner in WOT and a major non nato ally couldnt take it and approached it's all weather friend China for the deal.. and china being china granted it...

all this should be clear enough for all if they see things in an unbiased manner rather than with a nationalistic jingoism...

now am asking u again.. did i ever oppose the deal? or did i ever support the deal?

now tell me.. why didnt pakistan ask for this deal before india?

P.S: Hopefully my spacing of the paragraphs is legible enough to u now..

I'm sorry, but all that you have written above amounts to what Pakistanis and Pakistan have been arguing all this time - nuclear trade should not be discriminatory, and that the single NSG exemption granted to India, without any rules or metrics in place as to what qualifies a nation for an exemption, was discriminatory.

So I fail to see what your point is if you agree with the above, since that appears to be what you are stating.