N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[SBD-3]

Yes it is the NSG.

This is for your use :

but that does not clear which rule will hold.....

 

[RescueRanger]

ok I think you still didnt get my point ..let me make it simple to u..

why does pakistan want nuclear deal now?

until recently pakistan (and all other non NPT members) couldnt have imagined getting a nuclear deal with out being signatories of the NPT.
but it came as a rude shock to Pakistan(and to most of the world) by seeing the hard core pro-indian bush admn "granting" such a deal to india even though the latter being a non signatory to NPT..

This made pakistan to ask for the similar deal with a justification that if india can have it why not pakistan? and after being rebuked by the now US administration (which i think wouldnt have granted this deal to india in the first place if it was in the power then) pak being an active partner in WOT and a major non nato ally couldnt take it and approached it's all weather friend China for the deal.. and china being china granted it...

all this should be clear enough for all if they see things in an unbiased manner rather than with a nationalistic jingoism...

now am asking u again.. did i ever oppose the deal? or did i ever support the deal?

now tell me.. why didnt pakistan ask for this deal before india?

P.S: Hopefully my spacing of the paragraphs is legible enough to u now..

all this should be clear enough for all if they see things in an unbiased manner rather than with a nationalistic jingoism...

Trust me, i am as impartial as they come!

now tell me.. why didnt pakistan ask for this deal before india?

When China's negotiations with Pakistan started in 1989, there were no restrictions on the sale of nuclear equipment for peaceful purposes to the latter, but after the coming into force of the Pressler Amendment in October, 1990, Washington unsuccessfully pressured Beijing not to go ahead with the project. The latter contended that since the plant would be under the IAEA safeguards, there was no bar on its selling it to the PAEC.

However, under US pressure, Japan, Germany, France and other Western countries refused to sell any component to China for use in the plant to be supplied to Pakistan.

Source: Sino-Pak Nuclear Co-operation

Hope that answer's your question!

 

[TechLahore]

We would not have had pages and pages of discussion on "Concern" from India if this was not to be taken seriously. Don't write nonsense.

You are losing your civility and calm along with whatever sense, comprehension and objectivity you had. Too bad for you.

By the way, if you are uncivil with me again please don't complain at the response.

Pakistan asking US for a nuclear deal after India got one is natural. Pakistan wants to be treated like India in the world. Does that have anything to do with the discussion about "Indian concerns to the nuclear deal" ?

India is concerned about almost every Pakistani acquisition... a poster summarized a whole list of headlines citing Indian "concern" to a half a dozen transactions that all went through. So Indian concern is irrelevant for everyone other than India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes it is the NSG.

This is for your use :

What is for my use? Where are the NSG rules and metrics governing exemptions?

 

[SBD-3]

We would not have had pages and pages of discussion on "Concern" from India if this was not to be taken seriously. Don't write nonsense.

Pakistan asking US for a nuclear deal after India got one is natural. Pakistan wants to be treated like India in the world. Does that have anything to do with the discussion about "Indian concerns to the nuclear deal" ?

Why do you all have one thing in common.....I don't wana write it but you know

 

[ramu]

What is for my use? Where are the NSG rules and metrics governing exemptions?

An example of what an NSG exemption is.

http://www.armscontrol.org/system/files/20080906_Final_NSG_Statement.pdf

If you want the rules, there are rules of a democracy. 46 members have to agree to ratify the exemption and if they don't all bets are off. That is the rule that governs nuclear trade to non signatory members.

 

[PracticalGuy]

First of all, Pakistan-China cooperation on Nuclear power plants goes much farther back than the US-India nuclear deal. Second, the Pakistani and Chinese position is that the current engagement was grandfathered in at the time China joined the NSG in 2004. These nuclear cooperation discussions and projects were already underway prior to 2004.

Also, let me point to a US-tilted resource on the subject, the council on foreign relations (url below). Even prior to China and Pakistan announcing that they will be moving forward on this deal, analysts and observers in the US were already taking the position that the US-India deal was a threat to China, and that China would see it this way. It is a statement of the obvious, and shouldn't come as a surprise to you that China doesn't like India being used as a pawn by the US... It stands to reason that China will counter these moves. Here is part of the analysis I am referring to:

The U.S.-India Nuclear Deal - Council on Foreign Relations

You need to see Chinese actions not just in the India-Pakistan context, but in the context of overall Chinese interests and US-China jockeying. This deal will happen.

As for the NPT, here is what the CFR had to say about the India-US nuclear deal's affect on that treaty:

The U.S.-India Nuclear Deal - Council on Foreign Relations

the international implications for the us-india deal and the pakistan-china deal is a very vast subject that goes beyond the energy needs..

every body knows that civilian nuclear deal is not only for satisfying energy needs ..it would also set aside one's scarce enriched uranium to only military needs instead of diverting some to the civilian purpose ..and hence the worry for pakistan and china over india-us deal..and rightfully so being adversaries to india..

now india too had nuclear plants before this deal just like pakistan.. but all those deals were bilateral with limited supply of uranium fuel being bilateral and hence their limited foot prints...

but with india's deal.. there came an unlimited access to the NSG's uranium fuel bank which is far more huge than the bilateral ones..

now the question needs to be asked is..will pakistan-china deal gives the same access to NSG's fuel bank to pakistan.. if yes then it's a tit for tat victory for pak ..if no..then it would be only a limited triumph as it would be another bilateral agreement with limited fuel supply...

 

[TechLahore]

What is for my use? Where are the NSG rules and metrics governing exemptions?

AM, the text below the part you quoted positions China as having two options. It is clearly taking the latter of the two, i.e. the grandfathering argument.

The truth of the matter is that China is not going to back away from this now, when it has significant leverage on the world stage. If it didn't shy away from helping Pakistan with nuclear weapons focused Khushab in the late 80s and early 90s, when it was in a weaker position and Pakistan was actually sanctioned, then it ain't about to happen now.

Here is what GlobalSecurity says about the objectives of Khushab, the Chinese assistance and its timing: Khushab - Pakistan Special Weapons Facilities

At the end of the day, what are they going to do to stop China? Sanction China? Start a war? Evict China from the NSG (which would be detrimental to the west itself)? There is nothing they can realistically do which would be "strong" enough to prevent China from moving forward on this issue. As I mentioned in an earlier post, China did not like the US-India transaction completely separate and apart from Pakistan's position or Pakistan's interests. (See CFR link I posted earlier). This is not just about India and Pakistan... China's own interests are at stake.

So net-net, if someone wants to harbour delusions about being able to arm twist China on this one, then they are welcome to their mental concoctions. All one can say is, "Keep Dreaming!"

 

[ramu]

You are losing your civility and calm along with whatever sense, comprehension and objectivity you had. Too bad for you.

By the way, if you are uncivil with me again please don't complain at the response.



India is concerned about almost every Pakistani acquisition... a poster summarized a whole list of headlines citing Indian "concern" to a half a dozen transactions that all went through. So Indian concern is irrelevant for everyone other than India.

Don't teach me civility. I have seen you civility in action and you know what I am talking about. The best you can do is ban me for asking you to stop writing nonsense.

Again with the most polished of English, you fail to understand that writing nonsense will fetch points from an audience who can't think beyond words.

The poster forgot about JF-17 and the French for example. I had a counter list but to stay on topic, I decided not to post the list.

 

[TechLahore]

now the question needs to be asked is..will pakistan-china deal gives the same access to NSG's fuel bank to pakistan.. if yes then it's a tit for tat victory for pak ..if no..then it would be only a limited triumph as it would be another bilateral agreement with limited fuel supply...

I don't think access to the NSG nuclear fuel bank is a big deal for Pakistan. Nice if it happened, but not required by any means. Our needs can be *easily* fulfilled by alternate resources.

We have even offered nuclear fuel services to the world community:

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan offers global nuclear fuel services

 

[PracticalGuy]

Since you agree that Pakistan needs energy, and that its rapidly increasing population will in fact require even more energy, then what exactly is the problem with the sentiment quoted in your post above?

please read my other posts where i "tried" to explain my previous post..

and I should ask..why my earlier post seemed so negative to you all? is is'nt it obvious what i said?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

An example of what an NSG exemption is.

http://www.armscontrol.org/system/files/20080906_Final_NSG_Statement.pdf

If some of the things mentioned in that statement on the Indian exemption are to be the 'rules and metrics' governing exemptions, then why are they not officially part of the NSG charter?

If you want the rules, there are rules of a democracy. 46 members have to agree to ratify the exemption and if they don't all bets are off. That is the rule that governs nuclear trade to non signatory members.

Where in the NSG guidelines/charter does it say that any trade with non-NPT States will be governed by an 'exemption granted by consensus'?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

please read my other posts where i "tried" to explain my previous post..

and I should ask..why my earlier post seemed so negative to you all? is is'nt it obvious what i said?

I don't understand what the point of your posts is, since you accept that Pakistan has energy needs which make nuclear power a good option, and that Pakistan was opposed to discriminatory treatment with only India being granted an exemption. Once India was granted an exemption, of course Pakistan demanded one since a single exemption, without any rules or metrics governing exemptions that other nations could follow, would be discriminatory.

 

[TechLahore]

Don't teach me civility. I have seen you civility in action and you know what I am talking about. The best you can do is ban me for asking you to stop writing nonsense.

Why should I ban you when you are spouting juicy nonsense to be recorded in the annals of this forum's history? And your (lack of an) argument is being ripped apart from every direction?

Again with the most polished of English, you fail to understand that writing nonsense will fetch points from an audience who can't think beyond words.

And thus continues your slide into incoherence... you seem tremendously rattled Chin up!

The poster forgot about JF-17 and the French for example. I had a counter list but to stay on topic, I decided not to post the list.

Good for you. The JF-17/French situation would have fetched you a dozen counter responses showing that the leak is unsubstantiated. In the latest AFM the PAF CAS confirmed that he directly spoke to the French Defence Ministry and they denied any such hold-up. So I'm glad you didn't mention that.

 

[ramu]

If some of the things mentioned in that statement on the Indian exemption are to be the 'rules and metrics' governing exemptions, then why are they not officially part of the NSG charter?

Where in the NSG guidelines/charter does it say that any trade with non-NPT States will be governed by an 'exemption granted by consensus'?

The Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) at a Glance | Arms Control Association

Membership

Any state that conducts exports appearing on the Guidelines may apply for NSG membership. A potential member is evaluated on its proliferation record, adherence to international nonproliferation treaties and agreements, and national export controls. All existing members must approve an applicant for it to join the regime. There are several countries with nuclear programs outside the NSG, most notably India, Israel, Pakistan, and North Korea.

I will have to dig deeper but this is for starters.