N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The US needs to realise that it cannot control or dictate developments between third states no matter how distasteful they may be. It must not forget that China would not have done this if it was not comfortable with controls and security measures implemented by Pakistan. It is also a good opportunity for Pakistan to alleviate previous concerns about proliferation and prove it is a responsible nuclear state, one that deserves due respect.

Absolutely!

 

[SpArK]

Absolutely!

i too agree civilian nuclear deal is a must for power starved country.

 

[iron_man]

India should highlight Pakistan nuclear proliferation history to the world.

This deal is not good for India for that mater to the world.

 

[PracticalGuy]

i too agree civilian nuclear deal is a must for power starved country.

dont be so naive... Pakistan wants nuclear deal because India has one.. as simple as that..

 

[foxbat]

There is a good reason for the objection. Do you not think that a deal that has the elements of the most potent technology known to man should follow some regulations setout ?
Pakistan indeed is in need of nuclear technology for civilian use and they should have it. All I am asking is the unnecessary hurry that Pakistan is showing. India started with the nuclear deal proposal in 2004 or before and it took them a good 6 years to clear the air and build the atmosphere with the help of US and Russia to get it through.

Pakistan is in immediate need of electricity but it has not even used the current hydro electric capability available in the country. The problem I see with the deal is the bilateral nature of the deal with very little information out for public scrutiny. Even if the deal follows the best practices and norms, without the obligation of a governing framework, this will indeed set a precedent and a free for all problems that can result in dangerous consequences.

Let us for example consider a possibility of Bangladesh getting a similar deal from India in the civil nuclear arena and the resultant fallout in Burma and so on.


Pakistan and China should follow the international obligations and not use back door means to get a deal.

See.. My point is following.. The world knows that China has been instrumental in Pakistan becoming a nuclear nation. China will not wait for the world to give a green signal to provide Pakistan with nuclear technology since its been doing that for decades. Now unless the calculations are horribly wrong, this is going to be a bilateral deal and not the India like deal which got the NSG waiver and hence every single NSG member got a green signal to get the nuclear trade with India going. In Pakistan's case, it is China only.

As a matter of fact this deal is old wine in new bottle. China and Pakistan have been cooperating on nuclear tech for years now. Its just a public announcement probably triggered by the US refusal to give a nuke deal to Pakistan to establish a visible status parity with India.

Nothing new that has not been happening already.

 

[ramu]

dont be so naive... Pakistan wants nuclear deal because India has one.. as simple as that..

That is not a problem. Pakistan if it wants a nuclear deal , can have it but should stop the back door entry approach.

 

[Hulk]

What is the deal here, I see nuclear reactors in the deal, but are they getting supply of Uranium too. That is more important.

 

[ramu]

See.. My point is following.. The world knows that China has been instrumental in Pakistan becoming a nuclear nation. China will not wait for the world to give a green signal to provide Pakistan with nuclear technology since its been doing that for decades. Now unless the calculations are horribly wrong, this is going to be a bilateral deal and not the India like deal which got the NSG waiver and hence every single NSG member got a green signal to get the nuclear trade with India going. In Pakistan's case, it is China only.

As a matter of fact this deal is old wine in new bottle. China and Pakistan have been cooperating on nuclear tech for years now. Its just a public announcement probably triggered by the US refusal to give a nuke deal to Pakistan to establish a visible status parity with India.

Nothing new that has not been happening already.

The only issue I have is the wrong precedence that will be set that a nuclear deal is a bilateral matter... China supporting Pakistan in nuclear proliferation is well documented and so is the support that Israel obtained.

If India does not express reservations with legalising such a deal, will it have the ability to remain consistent if such a deal is proposed by another country to say Zimbabwe?

Whether the world agrees/china agrees/Pakistan cares to this or not is secondary but India was one of the countries that is strongly committed to global disarmament and one of the important voices in non aligned movement. It was not even a power that was taken seriously then but that did not stop us from being opinionated. Today Indian opinion matters. India has to take a stand that is consistent with what it thinks is the correct approach to civil nuclear technology transfer.



---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 AM ----------

What is the deal here, I see nuclear reactors in the deal, but are they getting supply of Uranium too. That is more important.

The details of the deal is still sketchy.

 

[RescueRanger]

dont be so naive... Pakistan wants nuclear deal because India has one.. as simple as that..

You need to dismount from your high horse and see reality. The whole world does not revolve around India. Please move on from this stupid adolescent mentality.

Firstly acquint yourself with the facts on the ground before making yourself look like a fool!

We need the additional reactors for meet our growing energy needs and give necessary relief to the industrial sector and public consumers:

People across the country are suffering at the hands of the Pakistan Electric Power Company (PEPCO) and the Water and Power Development Authority (WAPDA), as the 4,700 megawatt electricity shortfall has triggered up to 20 hours of load shedding every day in some areas.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

PEPCO sources say the gap between the supply and demand of electricity may increase in the coming months due to a rise in temperature, while officials in the ministry concerned say that there would be less load shedding in May and June, as compared to last year. According to PEPCO spokesman Muhammad Khalid, the shortfall recorded across the country on Saturday was over 4,535 MW. He said the demand of electricity stood at 14,645 MW, while the supply was 10,110 MW.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Islamabad Chamber of Commerce and Industry (ICCI) President Zahid Maqbool told Daily Times that the industrial sector had already suffered a loss of over Rs 220 billion this year, due to electricity and gas shortage in the country, while more than 400,000 workers had lost their jobs because the industrial units are no longer operational.

ICCI | Welcome to Islamabad Chamber of Commerce & Industry

Some more links for your reading:
Power Crisis In Pakistan | PK on web
Energy Shortage | Worldwide Energy Shortages
Pakistan's Energy Crisis Worsens - By Huma Imtiaz | The AfPak Channel


A lot of countries are turning to Nuclear energy to meet their energey needs: Support increasing for nuclear energy

Plans for New Nuclear Reactors Worldwide

---

Pakistan has every right to nuclear energy (Full Stop)!

 

[ramu]

Pakistan has every right to nuclear energy (Full Stop)!

Agreed. Don't use the back door approach. Stop taking shortcuts and negotiate a deal with the world body and you will have a deal. The only reservation is the approach taken by Pakistan.

An army general asks for a nuclear deal in US of A and is part of a diplomatic mission. Clearly, not a good starting point to get a deal.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is a good reason for the objection. Do you not think that a deal that has the elements of the most potent technology known to man should follow some regulations setout ?

These are Light Water Reactors that used Low Enriched Uranium (LEU), and do not produce weapons grade Plutonium as a byproduct like Heavy Water Reactors do, as is the case with most of India's NPP's.

Highly Enriched Uranium can be used (and is used by Pakistan) for nuclear weapons, but the issue there is the enrichment technology (separate from the nuclear power plant itself) and Pakistan already has that. In fact, Pakistan is moving away from HEU based weapons to Plutonium weapons since the latter are lighter and more powerful, and has almost completed two Heavy Water reactors at its Khushab complex to more than triple its Plutonium production capacity.

Additionally, in terms of 'elements of the most potent technology known to man', Pakistan already has two almost identical (to the ones being proposed) NPP's at Chasma, which are under IAEA safeguards (the same being proposed for the proposed sale), the second of which is to become operational this year or the next, so the technology is already in Pakistani hands.

Hence the concerns over 'restricted technology' are invalid in this particular case.

 

[ramu]

These are Light Water Reactors that used Low Enriched Uranium (LEU), and do not produce weapons grade Plutonium as a byproduct like Heavy Water Reactors do, as is the case with most of India's NPP's.

Highly Enriched Uranium can be used (and is used by Pakistan) for nuclear weapons, but the issue there is the enrichment technology (separate from the nuclear power plant itself) and Pakistan already has that. In fact, Pakistan is moving away from HEU based weapons to Plutonium weapons since the latter are lighter and more powerful, and has almost completed two Heavy Water reactors at its Khushab complex to more than triple its Plutonium production capacity.

Additionally, in terms of 'elements of the most potent technology known to man', Pakistan already has two almost identical (to the ones being proposed) NPP's at Chasma, which are under IAEA safeguards (the same being proposed for the proposed sale), the second of which is to become operational this year or the next, so the technology is already in Pakistani hands.

Hence the concerns over 'restricted technology' are invalid in this particular case.

Unfortunately this deal will set the tone for future collaboration between China and Pakistan. Why not execute this potential dual use technology in a manner that is acceptable to IAEA and also get their approval.

 

[PracticalGuy]

double post

 

[PracticalGuy]

You need to dismount from your high horse and see reality. The whole world does not revolve around India. Please move on from this stupid adolescent mentality.

Firstly acquint yourself with the facts on the ground before making yourself look like a fool!

We need the additional reactors for meet our growing energy needs and give necessary relief to the industrial sector and public consumers:

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

ICCI | Welcome to Islamabad Chamber of Commerce & Industry

Some more links for your reading:
Power Crisis In Pakistan | PK on web
Energy Shortage | Worldwide Energy Shortages
Pakistan's Energy Crisis Worsens - By Huma Imtiaz | The AfPak Channel


A lot of countries are turning to Nuclear energy to meet their energey needs: Support increasing for nuclear energy

Plans for New Nuclear Reactors Worldwide

---

Pakistan has every right to nuclear energy (Full Stop)!

it would have been better you being a "think tank" would have hold your horses before going all to what i said... where in my post did i ever say pakistan shouldnt have it or should have it? I too agree that pakistan needs energy like yesterday.. but when did it get the "idea" of nuclear deal? ..only after it saw India pulled off a succesfull one... and thats what i was implying in my earlier post.. Pak wants the deal because India has one... now "think" again with a sane mind removing all ur bias and meaningless rhetoric..

 

[RescueRanger]

it would have been better you being an "think tank"(what ever that is..) would have hold your horses before going all to what i said... where in my post did i ever say pakistan shouldnt have it or should have it? I too agree that pakistan needs energy like yesterday.. but when did it get the "idea" of nuclear deal? ..only after it saw India pulled off a succesfull one... and thats what i was implying in my earlier post.. Pak wants the deal because India has one... now "think" again with a sane mind removing all ur bias and meaningless rhetoric..

My standing on this forum is not at debate here. So once again please refrain from petty squabbling and stay on topic.

In your post you clearly stated that Pakistan is seeking the tech because of India… Are you going against your own statement. You also did not discuss any of the merits for the Pakistani argument for wanting additional reactors.

As for the meaningless rhetoric? Posting facts seems rhetoric to you, then I’m afraid we have nothing to discuss. Kindly move along!


P.S.: It is also not nice to post wall's of text. Not very good for the eyes.