N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[SBD-3]

Yes. This deal should not and will not go thru for the simple reason that this deal is in direct violation of the commitments endorsed by China.



No, do not put words in my mouth. I did not say this. An analyst who described the possible ways of getting this through proposed this approach that this can stand some ground. However, this approach will fall apart as this deal cannot be used in future contexts.




And while we all wait, India has expressed its concern.

while you're so happy let me give you one bad news...(which I never wanted to share with a thing like you)
here read it out
Khushab Nuclear Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we are not out of option beta

 

[ramu]

I asked for answers not your comments cuz i dont need them...if you can give me some authentic answers.....only then reply

And I am not obliged to answer your questions. You are not the boss here and I am not in the business of answering your questions.

I am here to debate and I have every right to express my opinion ... read it or leave it.

 

[SBD-3]

And I am not obliged to answer your questions. You are not the boss here and I am not in the business of answering your questions.

I am here to debate and I have every right to express my opinion ... read it or leave it.

that means something very simple......YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER!!!@@@

[Mod edit - words]

 

[ramu]

while you're so happy let me give you one bad news...(which I never wanted to share with a thing like you)
here read it out
Khushab Nuclear Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we are not out of option beta

This is not about whose nuclear plant is the best : Hope you know that.

And after reading your post I have started doubting if it is even worth debating with you. Consider this as my last post to you if you digress.

 

[PracticalGuy]

I don't understand what the point of your posts is, since you accept that Pakistan has energy needs which make nuclear power a good option, and that Pakistan was opposed to discriminatory treatment with only India being granted an exemption. Once India was granted an exemption, of course Pakistan demanded one since a single exemption, without any rules or metrics governing exemptions that other nations could follow, would be discriminatory.

I dont know the technical details of the validity of the deal and I think RAMU is trying to do it...

having said that.. why do you all so surprised to see India's resistance to this deal? what do you expect India's response to be? Didnt Pakistan object to the India-US deal before? Didnt China try it's best till the last moment to wreck the deal? now it's India's turn to reciprocate..

leaving aside all these opposition.. it might also be a ploy for pak to extract some thing more from the US to get out of this nuclear deal ..and i have to accept that pakistan plays this game very well to it's advantage... and this only time will tell..

and you should keep this in mind that this deal is not only a civilian nuclear deal but it will also have ripple effect in the military field too.. and thats what making pakistan to go all out for "this" kind of energy deal for it's energy problems ..even though it has huge coal reserves and with negligible coal fired thermal energy plants...

at the end it's all geo politics.. India would have been surprised if Pak and China hadnt opposed it's deal and Pak would be surprised if India doesnt oppose this deal..

 

[SBD-3]

This is not about whose nuclear plant is the best : Hope you know that.

And after reading your post I have started doubting if it is even worth debating with you. Consider this as my last post to you if you digress.

OOO what happend....I did nt mean that....I meant that we can produce such thing indiginously as well....

 

[ramu]

But if, as you admit, the technology is 'not sensitive by Pakistan's standards ( as I explained in a post earlier), then I reiterate that enhancing Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons capability is not the issue here.

If that is not the issue, then it must be the fact that allowing this deal to go through solidifies Pakistan's status as a nuclear State (eventually leading to its own full fledged NSG exemption) and allows Pakistan to advance and develop.

So one can only assume that Indian objections are due to the latter issue, which makes the objections 'petty and vindictive', indicative of an elitist mindset that wants to be treated 'differently' from its 'neighbor'.

AM, may be true that the two NRs in question is no big deal for Pak. What Pakistan considers sensitive or not is not a scale that is well defined. Due to this it is not possible to deal with such a scenario on a case by case basis.

A gamut of rules for Nuclear trade is agreed by majority of whose who in the Nuclear world. Why not use that as a guideline to stay within the rules of NSG ?

 

[ramu]

OOO what happend....I did nt mean that....I meant that we can produce such thing indiginously as well....

Yes and that is why Kayani was asking Hillary for it on a diplomatic mission to Washington. Grow up and get a dose of reality.


[Mod edit: words - please don't be derogatory towards Pakistani COAS]

 

[TechLahore]

having said that.. why do you all so surprised to see India's resistance to this deal? what do you expect India's response to be? Didnt Pakistan object to the India-US deal before? Didnt China try it's best till the last moment to wreck the deal? now it's India's turn to reciprocate..

I appreciate your honesty re India's knee jerk opposition. But you are incorrect re Pakistan's objections... Pakistan didn't object to the US-India deal. It objected to discrimination. We are very happy India has the deal. No one should stand in our way either. Discriminating against countries and preventing access to technology - specially technology of such monumental importance - is a colonial, exploitative practice and we thought India, of all countries, would understand this and take a principled position on this issue. However, that, we have come to discover, is not to be and India cannot get beyond its petty Pakistan-centricism.

leaving aside all these opposition.. it would also be a ploy for pak to extract some thing more from the US to get out of this nuclear deal ..and i have to accept that pakistan plays this game very well to it's advantage... and this only time will tell..

I have a feeling you are right and Pakistan and China will move forward with this deal.

and you should keep this in mind that this deal is not only a civilian nuclear deal but it will also have ripple effect in the military field too.. and thats what making pakistan to go all out for "this" kind of energy deal for it's energy problems ..even though it has huge coal reserves and with negligible coal fired thermal energy plants...

I have answered this earlier. Our thirst for energy is tremendous and we can't just rely on unclean sources of energy such as coal. China is busy shutting down coal based power plants in massive numbers. If I am not mistaken, in 2008, they shut down more than 10GWh of coal fired capacity. We will continue to use coal from Thar and develop new plants there (two or three in the works as we speak) but nuclear power is essential for us.

As for military uses, please realize that these particular plants really don't change the military equation much. Khushab, which is almost exclusively for military purposes and is a key component of the Plutonium program, is already up and running - without much international ado - and is a reality on the ground.

So making the nuclear weapons argument in the case of these power plants is indefensible.

at the end it's all geo politics.. India would have surprised if Pak and China didnt oppose it's deal and Pak would be surprised if India doesnt oppose this deal..

But Pakistan never asked the Americans to deny this tech to India. We said these exchanges should happen on a level playing field and we should not be excluded. Contrary to the views you are expressing here, we really don't care how much nuclear technology you acquire. We both have enough nuclear weapons to flatten each other, so what does it matter now? Now the issue is civilian technology and India should have not played into the discriminatory, exploitative colonial mindset.

 

[SBD-3]

Yes and that is why Kayani was asking Hillary for it on a diplomatic mission to Washington. Grow up and get a dose of reality.


[Mod edit: words - please don't be derogatory towards Pakistani COAS]

whatever you say would not change the reality.....OMG...I just 1500

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A gamut of rules for Nuclear trade is agreed by majority of whose who in the Nuclear world. Why not use that as a guideline to stay within the rules of NSG ?

But there are no specific, defined rules that Pakistan can look at and say, 'OK, we have to accomplish X, Y and Z, and apply for an exemption'. The whole point here is that in arbitrarily granting India an exemption that appears to violate the NSG's own principle of not trading with non-NPT signatories, it has undermined the entire NSG nuclear trade regime.

Had it granted India an exemption by first outlining certain rules such as 'stable political system (can't have democracy as a condition because of China), stringent export control rules, comprehensive domestic safeguards, cooperation on proliferation' etc. then I might be inclined to agree with your POV since a process had been defined. But the manner in which India was granted an exemption was pretty much a 'we want X to get an exemption and we don't give a darn about NSG principles and we will armtwist you into granting that exemption'.

That is no manner to induce other nations to follow the rules.

 

[ramu]

But there are no specific, defined rules that Pakistan can look at and say, 'OK, we have to accomplish X, Y and Z, and apply for an exemption'. The whole point here is that in arbitrarily granting India an exemption that appears to violate the NSG's own principle of not trading with non-NPT signatories, it has undermined the entire NSG nuclear trade regime.

Had it granted India an exemption by first outlining certain rules such as 'stable political system (can't have democracy as a condition because of China), stringent export control rules, comprehensive domestic safeguards, cooperation on proliferation' etc. then I might be inclined to agree with your POV since a process had been defined. But the manner in which India was granted an exemption was pretty much a 'we want X to get an exemption and we don't give a darn about NSG principles and we will armtwist you into granting that exemption'.

That is no manner to induce other nations to follow the rules.

So do you believe that Pakistan should if it wishes transfer technology to Bangladesh for example as it is having an energy crisis by the same token of reasoning ?

If you say "yes" then all hell will break loose and every state will line up for a deal for fear or favour.

If you say "no" then there needs to be a understanding of which country can be exempt and which country cannot be on a case to case basis. I am all for Pakistan getting the deal as they are a nuclear power and the use of civil technology will bring prosperity to the country. However, doing the deal in a bilateral fashion is setting a wrong precedence IMHO.

 

[Creder]

I have a question man, am i the only one who thinks this entire discussion is ridiculous ? Why are we even arguing with the indian members here ? On ANY other forum if such a topic was at hand people would be talking about the actual deal, its benefits to the people, how are these reactors going to be set up and all that..Instead we have to spend all our time in this useless bickering, listening to these stupid comments by indian members ?

Are you only going to ban people who are stupid enough to use curse words, what about members here who literally have nothing to go on and are just arguing to annoy the hell out of readers. Already they just like their moronic media is trying to bamboozle this issue into something that its not. Come on guys, stop them..tech agno this is a request thanks

 

[SBD-3]

yeah I also messed up with two of these before on Indian forum....but now I have learned how to deal with such illogical posters......

 

[ramu]

yeah I also messed up with two of these before on Indian forum....but now I have learned how to deal with such illogical posters......

Keep repeating that and you will someday learn about logic.

The only medicine you could think off is to ban everyone who does not belong to Pakistan. In that way everyone will be from the land of the "Pure"
Great!