N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

[ramu]

Why should I ban you when you are spouting juicy nonsense to be recorded in the annals of this forum's history? And your (lack of an) argument is being ripped apart from every direction?



And thus continues your slide into incoherence... you seem tremendously rattled Chin up!



Good for you. The JF-17/French situation would have fetched you a dozen counter responses showing that the leak is unsubstantiated. In the latest AFM the PAF CAS confirmed that he directly spoke to the French Defence Ministry and they denied any such hold-up. So I'm glad you didn't mention that.

Your choice of words clearly highlight your desperation. Come up with an argument before your rip apart mine.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't understand Ramu, this isn't even a full fledged nuclear deal with Pakistan like the Indian NSG rules violation -- ahem, I mean 'exemption' -- it doesn't expand Pakistan's nuclear weapons capability, so why so much hostility towards Pakistan and opposition to something that would help in Pakistan's development?

Is the Indian mindset so elitist and petty that it cannot bear the thought of Pakistan developing and advancing?

For all the snide jibes of 'Pakistan is jealous of India's development and progress' that I see on the webosphere, it is the attitude of India and many Indians that actually fit the bill on that count.

 

[SBD-3]

An example of what an NSG exemption is.

http://www.armscontrol.org/system/files/20080906_Final_NSG_Statement.pdf

If you want the rules, there are rules of a democracy. 46 members have to agree to ratify the exemption and if they don't all bets are off. That is the rule that governs nuclear trade to non signatory members.

now I appreciate you finally did some labor to pull out such a good document. Provide me with the answers of Three Simple Questions
1) the document's point 1'e notes the need for energy as primary purpose....now if this is true....then Pakistan is currently facing a sever energy crisis 4000 MW (i hope you know that this is called mega watts).....so what makes you believe that Pakistan should not be provided with such facility it has the same ground
2) Keeping superseding position aside, Is there even a Legal stature of NSG?....if it is please provide me with the link or any useful information.
3) Aside from Civilian Use if you read point 3b which allows the transfer of dual use technologies...no safe gaurds are there

In addition to impelling India to achieve success in developing these new reactor technologies, the sanctions also provided India with the impetus to continue developing its own nuclear weapons technology with a specific goal of achieving self-sufficiency for all key components for weapons design, testing and production.

furthermore,According to the calculations of one of the key advisers to the US Nuclear deal negotiating team, Ashley Tellis

Operating India’s eight unsafeguarded PHWRs in such a [conservative] regime would bequeath New Delhi with some 12,135–13,370 kilograms of weapons-grade plutonium, which is sufficient to produce between 2,023–2,228 nuclear weapons over and above those already existing in the Indian arsenal. Although no Indian analyst, let alone a policy maker, has ever advocated any nuclear inventory that even remotely approximates such numbers, this heuristic exercise confirms that New Delhi has the capability to produce a gigantic nuclear arsenal while subsisting well within the lowest estimates of its known uranium reserves.

so tell me why Pakistan should not be concerned..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) at a Glance | Arms Control Association

Membership

Any state that conducts exports appearing on the Guidelines may apply for NSG membership. A potential member is evaluated on its proliferation record, adherence to international nonproliferation treaties and agreements, and national export controls. All existing members must approve an applicant for it to join the regime. There are several countries with nuclear programs outside the NSG, most notably India, Israel, Pakistan, and North Korea.

I will have to dig deeper but this is for starters.

Good, that governs membership of the NSG at least, though not the 'exemption granted by consensus' part.

 

[ramu]

I don't understand Ramu, this isn't even a full fledged nuclear deal with Pakistan like the Indian NSG rules violation -- ahem, I mean 'exemption' -- it doesn't expand Pakistan's nuclear weapons capability, so why so much hostility towards Pakistan and opposition to something that would help in Pakistan's development?

Is the Indian mindset so elitist and petty that it cannot bear the thought of Pakistan developing and advancing?

For all the snide jibes of 'Pakistan is jealous of India's development and progress' that I see on the webosphere, it is the attitude of India and many Indians that actually fit the bill on that count.

AM, educate yourself. The deal clearly involves technology that is considered sensitive but may not be sensitive by Pak standards.

The Guidelines of NSG are comprised of two parts, each of which was created in response to a significant proliferation event that highlighted shortcomings in then-existing export control systems. Part I lists materials and technology designed specifically for nuclear use. These include fissile materials, nuclear reactors and equipment, and reprocessing and enrichment equipment. First published in 1978, Part I responded to India's diversion of nuclear imports for supposedly peaceful purposes to conduct a nuclear explosion in 1974. Part II identifies dual-use goods, which are non-nuclear items with legitimate civilian applications that can also be used to develop weapons. Machine tools and lasers are two types of dual-use goods. NSG members adopted Part II in 1992 after discovering how close Iraq came to realizing its nuclear weapons ambitions by illicitly employing dual-use imports in a covert nuclear weapons program before the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

Clearly the proposed deal between China and Pakistan violates the NSG guidelines.

 

[TechLahore]

Your choice of words clearly highlight your desperation. Come up with an argument before your rip apart mine.

Any attempt to articulate your "argument" seems to be have fizzled away into the ether. What the heck is your argument? We can start at the beginning.

You earlier mentioned that you were willing to bet this deal between China and Pakistan would not go through. Correct?

Now beyond this, you have said that Pakistan and China are "backdooring" this somehow by taking the grandfathering position.

What more? The response to the first is, let's wait and see. The response to the second is, if you think that, tough.

 

[ramu]

now I appreciate you finally did some labor to pull out such a good document. Provide me with the answers of Three Simple Questions
1) the document's point 1'e notes the need for energy as primary purpose....now if this is true....then Pakistan is currently facing a sever energy crisis 4000 MW (i hope you know that this is called mega watts).....so what makes you believe that Pakistan should not be provided with such facility it has the same ground
2) Keeping superseding position aside, Is there even a Legal stature of NSG?....if it is please provide me with the link or any useful information.
3) Aside from Civilian Use
furthermore,According to the calculations of one of the key advisers to the US Nuclear deal negotiating team, Ashley Tellis
so tell me why Pakistan should not be concerned..

Now that you have opened your mind, try and understand that nobody can stop Pakistan from having the nuclear deal/trade if Pakistan puts in the effort to negotiate a deal from the world community.

Pakistan is energy hungry just like India but has Pakistan jumped the gun by getting into bed with China prematurely in the glare of the world?

Like India, US was the starting point, for Pakistan China is the start point. But US and India did not go ahead with a deal but laboured it out to convince the members of NSG to come up with an exemption.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, educate yourself. The deal clearly involves technology that is considered sensitive but may not be sensitive by Pak standards.

But if, as you admit, the technology is 'not sensitive by Pakistan's standards ( as I explained in a post earlier), then I reiterate that enhancing Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons capability is not the issue here.

If that is not the issue, then it must be the fact that allowing this deal to go through solidifies Pakistan's status as a nuclear State (eventually leading to its own full fledged NSG exemption) and allows Pakistan to advance and develop.

So one can only assume that Indian objections are due to the latter issue, which makes the objections 'petty and vindictive', indicative of an elitist mindset that wants to be treated 'differently' from its 'neighbor'.

 

[SBD-3]

Now that you have opened your mind, try and understand that nobody can stop Pakistan from having the nuclear deal/trade if Pakistan puts in the effort to negotiate a deal from the world community.

Pakistan is energy hungry just like India but has Pakistan jumped the gun by getting into bed with China prematurely in the glare of the world?

Like India, US was the starting point, for Pakistan China is the start point. But US and India did not go ahead with a deal but laboured it out to convince the members of NSG to come up with an exemption.

I asked for answers not your comments cuz i dont need them...if you can give me some authentic answers.....only then reply

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Now that you have opened your mind, try and understand that nobody can stop Pakistan from having the nuclear deal/trade if Pakistan puts in the effort to negotiate a deal from the world community.

Pakistan is energy hungry just like India but has Pakistan jumped the gun by getting into bed with China prematurely in the glare of the world?

Like India, US was the starting point, for Pakistan China is the start point. But US and India did not go ahead with a deal but laboured it out to convince the members of NSG to come up with an exemption.

If this deal goes through, and Pakistan continues to operate its civilian reactors under IAEA safeguards safely and continues to maintain a good record on proliferation, an future NSG exemption (or a collapse of the NSG regime) is pretty much guaranteed.

This deal is IMO important for Pakistan from that perspective.

 

[ramu]

You earlier mentioned that you were willing to bet this deal between China and Pakistan would not go through. Correct?

Yes. This deal should not and will not go thru for the simple reason that this deal is in direct violation of the commitments endorsed by China.

Now beyond this, you have said that Pakistan and China are "backdooring" this somehow by taking the grandfathering position.

No, do not put words in my mouth. I did not say this. An analyst who described the possible ways of getting this through proposed this approach that this can stand some ground. However, this approach will fall apart as this deal cannot be used in future contexts.

What more? The response to the first is, let's wait and see. The response to the second is, if you think that, tough.

And while we all wait, India has expressed its concern.

 

[TechLahore]

So one can only assume that Indian objections are due to the latter issue, which makes the objections 'petty and vindictive', indicative of an elitist mindset that wants to be treated 'differently' from its 'neighbor'.

And why does this come as a surprise or revelation? As has been stated earlier, there is almost nothing of consequence Pakistan wants for itself, or attempts to acquire that isn't met with similar "concerns".

 

[ramu]

If this deal goes through, and Pakistan continues to operate its civilian reactors under IAEA safeguards safely and continues to maintain a good record on proliferation, an future NSG exemption (or a collapse of the NSG regime) is pretty much guaranteed.

This deal is IMO important for Pakistan from that perspective.

OK, the collapse of NSG is a big incident and I doubt it. That is an even greater cause for concern if this deal sets the stage for a collapse of NSG.

 

[T-Faz]

What concern is it to others that Pakistan and China are in the final stages of a much needed Nuclear Deal. As far as the protocols of the deal are concerned, the right argument for it will be put forward and the steps taken to insure that any doubts are addressed.

The greater problem in all this is the end result. The resultant cooperation, development and opportunities this deal will bring our nation. We have vigorously defended our nation from a much wanted collapse. We have proved our conviction that we will not be sidelined by others who do not want to see an independent strong nation.

Our successes are overlooked and the hard work we have to put in brushed off as mere propaganda, this deal will go through whether someone likes it or not. Failure to accord credit to anyone for what he may have done is a great weakness in any man. This seems to be the case for many who only find solace in highlighting the tiresome arguments that hold no ground or reality.

We have great requirements for energy, the lack of it can make our industries impractical. Though short term plans are in place to hold out for a limited time, such a deal would allow us to meet our challenges.

Parity is something a foe does not want to see, here we see the perfect example of this.

 

[TechLahore]

Yes. This deal should not and will not go thru for the simple reason that this deal is in direct violation of the commitments endorsed by China.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda... didn't! The point is that you are betting that it will not go through. Ultimately that is the only position of consequence. Supposed moral or legal justifications for this position are, ultimately, inconsequential because neither you (India), nor I (Pakistan) care two hoots about each others opinions on this subject. So as I said, let's wait and see.

No, do not put words in my mouth. I did not say this. An analyst who described the possible ways of getting this through proposed this approach that this can stand some ground. However, this approach will fall apart as this deal cannot be used in future contexts.

Ok. Glad to have that clarification. So you are saying that the grandfathering approach will fall apart - ultimately going back to #1 above - which is that the deal won't go through. Well, let's see.

And while we all wait, India has expressed its concern.

Wonderful. So that was the three point argument you were making. Now it's clear and we can move on. There is only one thing of consequence in all the above; in sum, you think Pakistan and China won't be able to move forward with this deal and we think they will. We will revisit this in a couple of years and see where we stand.