MRCA conteders narrowed to Eurofighter and Rafael: IAF

[ganimi kawa]

^^ A very good post! I'd just like to add a few more points regarding EF Rafale split order.
It would be the costliest option out there; both to procure and to maintain. Also if we opt for common avionics and radar integration costs will further inflate the bill!

IN order cannot be predicted right now. The chinese carrier and the jet onboard which are the most important future threat for IN are not out yet. We just can't presume that rafale would be adequate to deal with it !

Assuming that highest level of commonality is achieved , even then the logistical footprint will be significant.

 

[Dash]

I just want to ask one thing....Do we actually put some analysis when we say we need EFT and Rafale both in our inventory?-)..

I mean people think about it come-on.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

Sounds nice, but doubtful, especially the common radar and avionics in EF and Rafale!

A split rises the costs, because 200 same fighters from 1 vendor, are clearly cheaper than 200 from 2 different vendors.
The most logical choice for a split would be Gripen and F18Sh, both uses the same GE 414 engine, the same US weapons (Gripen could use the EU weapons in addition too), both are cost-effective, which makes a split more likely, because the unit costs won't increase that much and would be useful for the exact opposite roles (Gripen for A2A, F18SH for A2G). One have to admit a nice combo as a high low mix. The problem is, IAF already has a planed high lo mix with MKI and LCA, so what we need is something in between and the best suited is the Rafale, because it offers good A2A and A2G capabilities combined in 1 fighter.

Btw, a split would speed up the delivery only for a short time, because the aim is to get only 1 squad from the vendors, but the rest will be licence produced. So in a split we might get 1 squad from each vendor in 2014, but the licence production of 2 foreign fighters at the same time will be more difficult, which will cause delays and even extend the delivery. Not to forget that we still will produce LCA MK2, Su 30 MKI and later even FGFA at the same time!

I also thought about this bold part .. but we can go for co-manufaturing....may be it increase the price

Yes Rafale will be the best suit for after combo of LCA and MKI.

But with the EF we have commonality with LCA-MkII in case of engine(if we go for EJ) and also they may continue with their consulancy work for MkII.It very much like the insurance policy for LCA .

And as i said with Rafale we can get engine tech. for future variant of LCA and MCA.

But what will happen if EF guys offer their engine Tech to GoI ,for LCA and MCA, with TVC.And by 2014 their AESA will be ready.Then we can say only weakness left for EF is A2G capability or carrying usefull load.Where Rafale is miles ahead.

Its gone be situation for IAF.

But whatever we get either Tiffy or Rafy... they are far more advance then any other fighter in asia,except MKI .

 

[redpearl75]

It seems that the EFT and Rafale are in the final rounds and let's hope for the best. Either of these two will be the best choice still I prefer the Rafale...

 

[redpearl75]

Agree with you Tejas... MKi will be the leader followed by any of these aircafts followed by the upgraded Migs/Mirages and then we have our own powerhouse LCA... Rocking....

 

[redpearl75]

Even the indigenous Kaveri engines are not far behind and the proposal has already been made that if it's the Rafale that's selected the engines can be implimented in it and it sure will increase the capability of the fighter aircraft as the Kaveri Engines are going to provide dry thurst of 52 Kn and full afterburning thurst of 81.0 Kn which is much higher than that of the Snecma M88-2 turbofans with dry thurst of 50.04 Kn and full afterburning thurst of 75.62 Kn..
and if Rafale is upgraded with the Kaveri engines the maintainance will be of no pain as the line for LCA can be used for Rafale and vise-versa... Plus Rafale already offers the heighest weapon load.... The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010). The total value of the radar, electronic communications and self-protection equipment is about 30% of the cost of the entire plane.

But,

on the other hand the Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters. EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) with the Typhoon's EJ200 also engines for India. Thrust vectoring will improve operational capabilities, and reduce fuel burn by up to 5 percent and increase thrust while supersonic cruising by 7 percent.... can't be better.....

You are right again Tejas... It will a hell of a job to pick one from these two...
The best would be a 100/100 combination as IAF has already declared that the total count will shoot up to 200 or 210 once the final selection is made....

 

[fatman17]

10 August 2010

Russia's MiG-35 may have failed to make the short-list in the Indian Air Force’s MMRCA competition.


August 10: Ria Novosti reports that Russia's MiG-35 has failed to make the short-list in the Indian Air Force’s MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) competition.

Worth some $10 billion (€8 billion), the winner of the competition stands to provide 126 aircraft over the next decade to replace ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters. The removal of the MiG leaves Dassault’s Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon as favourites to win the order, says the report.

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the parent company for MiG, said that the official results of the tender have yet to be seen and the “MiG-35 is not leaving”. The report says sources have listed a number of problems with the MiG-35, including problems with engine not meeting the required specification.

Other types being considered under the MMRCA contest include Saab’s Gripen NG, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Boeing's F-18 Super Hornet.

 

[dee]

Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement

Tuesday, August 10, 2010Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement


Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air Force."


LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement

 

[Marxist]

India plays down reports of MMRCA decision

Non-Subscriber Extract

The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as favourites to win India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

Speaking to Jane's on 10 August, Sitanshu Kar said no decisions have been made about the programme following the MoD's receipt of a comprehensive trial report on the six rival fighters competing for the INR420 billion (USD9.1 billion) contract.

Some media outlets in India had earlier reported that the results of the MMRCA technical evaluations, which concluded in mid-2010, had prompted the Indian Air Force (IAF) to recommend to the MoD that the shortlist be narrowed down to just two aircraft: the Rafale and Typhoon.

The other platforms competing for the 126-aircraft tender are Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG.

India plays down reports of MMRCA decision

 

[!!craft!!]

BUSTED !!!!

 

[Super Falcon]

Russia's MiG-35 multirole fighter aircraft has failed to make the short-list in a $10 billion international tender for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian air force, according to Indian media reports quoted by Kommersant daily.The favorites to win the tender are the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, Indian media say.Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the holding company for most of the Russian aircraft industry, and its fighter subsidiary MiG, have not officially confirmed the reports."The official results of the tender have not yet been announced," said UAC's Press Secretary Konstantin Lantratov."The MiG-35 is not leaving the tender, and I have no official information about this," said UAC First Vice-President Mikhail Pogosyan.

 

[Rajput Warrior]

Damn if i were to chose id buy Eurofighter or mig 35!

 

[Jacobtheindoamerican]

Rafale must win! They cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the AESA radar and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be.

Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010.

Why wouldn't we go for this?!?!? Either one would be fine, but Rafale I think has the egde!

 

[!!craft!!]

guys please read the post by MARXIST.. i this this is just a media frenzy .. there is no such announcement being made...

 

[sancho]

guys please read the post by MARXIST.. i this this is just a media frenzy .. there is no such announcement being made...

Hi craft, the TOI report didn't said about an announcment, they said that from their informations (how reliable they might be), EF, Rafale are prefered in the technical evaluation and F18SH status is not decided yet.
Janes seems to be one of the few that talked officially with MoD officials (although a spokesman is not the best source, because he only says what others told him, not what he really knows), but even they couldn't counter the TOI report points, because all they said was:

The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports

No denial, no rejection!

All these reports (especially from livefist) have to be taken with a pinch of salt and often are only speculating of course, but also can have interesting infos about the requirements of IAF, or MoD.
For example, chhindits reported about requirement from the RFP (T/W ratio 1, or better, payload 5t, or more...) , rian.ru reported about the engine life and TOI reported about issues during the trials like no modern design and less future potential, less engine performance, which leads us to further requirements too.
If you are waiting for real decisions, you have to wait for MoD announcements!