MRCA conteders narrowed to Eurofighter and Rafael: IAF

[jha]

Cost, Politics, To Determine MMRCA Winner, Report With MoD, Awaits Approval !

Only determinable factors to go in towards computation of life-cycle cost, which will along with ToT , go towards identifying the L1 (lowest bidder). Life cycle, which is being calculated for the first time in any Indian defence deal, is a complex calculation, but will make up the actual total acquisition cost of a plane.

According to the RFP, "The life cycle cost of the aircraft should be as low as possible. Manufacturer would be responsible to provide parameters for computation of life-cycle cost and verifiable analysis of the same for life time usage of the aircraft. " But at the same time the RFP also provides some factors to the OEMs to determine the same, such as operational hours/year, MBTF, requirement of maintenance spares, mandatory replacements during preventive maintenance schedules etc.

The IAF has had 14 meetings with vendors over life-cycle and has termed it 'risky', as it has never been practised before, and seeks 'performance warranty'.

And now for ToT, which will form part of the commercial proposal, the cost of technology will be laid down by the manufacturer for the 54 key technologies laid down in the RFP for transfer of technology, many of whom are critical, under broad headings like--Airframe, Engine, Avionics and Communication and Accessories.

There is an option of the numbers going up more than 126, but only after the conclusion of the present contract.

"The commercial proposals of the firms whose aircraft is short listed after technical trials and evaluation, whose ToT criteria have been met and whose offset offers have been accepted technically will only be opened and a comparative statement will be prepared. Comparison of offers will also be done on the same basis."

Not all six vendors are compliant, as per the minimum requirements, some will be definitely knocked out, so as to ease the opening of the commercial bids, because the commercial proposals of all vendors can't be opened.

Though all top of the line fighters, but cost, international relations and national security will be paramount in determining the winner ! Best of luck all of you !!!

 

[angeldemon_007]

Though all top of the line fighters, but cost, international relations and national security will be paramount in determining the winner

I think Typhoon will win. They are giving us the latest model + they are adding few more features like thrust vectoring & AESA. The only problem with Typhoon is they are the only people who haven't tested aesa yet, which might delay the induction process.
Also Chinese JF-17 has the same design. I know it can't possibly have the same features as Typhoon but they still got the design.

 

[angeldemon_007]

In my opinion India should buy Typhoon as MMRCA. But instead of extending the project to 200 which we have heard we should stick to 126 only. We should scrap our latest Su30 mki deal of 42 fighters (as they are very expensive almost as expensive as typhoon). Also we should not go for mirage upgradation, we should opt for the deal like UAE is thinking, exchange mirage with rafale and pay for the extra cost. Also navy should opt for rafale naval version. This way there would be 1 more deal just of the same size of MRCA.
The benefit of second deal :
1) We know Su30 mki is good but not as good as rafale latest version with aesa.
2) Rafale is better than mirage, so why we are going for such an expensive upgradation. Mirage were inducted in 1985, they are now old, even after upgradation how long they will last ? I think this is the reason why Indian brains are still thinking on this issue and politicians are just trying to wrap up the deal to make France happy but on the contrary, the deal like the one proposed by me will make France much happier.
3) Rafale is actually a very good fighter plus France is ready to give full TOT. So in the end it would be good for our country only.
4) We have to acknowledge that in order to be a super power we have to spent money and we will be spending this much extra money (2.1 billion $ + 4.29 billion+some 60 or 70 naval fighters), I just think we should canalize the fund properly. By this way we can stop France from giving rafale to Pakistan also. People think its too expensive for Pak but fear is very surprising thing. Let me assure you, they will buy these fighters if India does not and rafale is a very good fighter to be in our enemies pocket, this is politics (Rafale and Typhoon are better than US fighters).
Russians won't feel bad since we will be signing deals like FGFA(30 billion $)+civil nuclear deal (sight be around 10 billion $ as two nuclear plants are proposed).
Also we can tie up with SAAB for Tejas MKII and even AMCA.

 

[anoop]

Cost, Politics, To Determine MMRCA Winner, Report With MoD, Awaits Approval !

Only determinable factors to go in towards computation of life-cycle cost, which will along with ToT , go towards identifying the L1 (lowest bidder). Life cycle, which is being calculated for the first time in any Indian defence deal, is a complex calculation, but will make up the actual total acquisition cost of a plane.

According to the RFP, "The life cycle cost of the aircraft should be as low as possible. Manufacturer would be responsible to provide parameters for computation of life-cycle cost and verifiable analysis of the same for life time usage of the aircraft. " But at the same time the RFP also provides some factors to the OEMs to determine the same, such as operational hours/year, MBTF, requirement of maintenance spares, mandatory replacements during preventive maintenance schedules etc.

The IAF has had 14 meetings with vendors over life-cycle and has termed it 'risky', as it has never been practised before, and seeks 'performance warranty'.

And now for ToT, which will form part of the commercial proposal, the cost of technology will be laid down by the manufacturer for the 54 key technologies laid down in the RFP for transfer of technology, many of whom are critical, under broad headings like--Airframe, Engine, Avionics and Communication and Accessories.

There is an option of the numbers going up more than 126, but only after the conclusion of the present contract.

"The commercial proposals of the firms whose aircraft is short listed after technical trials and evaluation, whose ToT criteria have been met and whose offset offers have been accepted technically will only be opened and a comparative statement will be prepared. Comparison of offers will also be done on the same basis."

if cost life cycle is included then i think f-18 beats every other fighter.
if i am wrong then correct me

 

[angeldemon_007]

if cost life cycle is included then i think f-18 beats every other fighter.
why ????/
We are not getting the same version of aesa and some key features of f-18 which are used by USAF.
On the other hand Typhoon and Rafale are far better fighter than f18.
Typhoon proved itself when placed with f22 during practice and it did not had aesa and thrust vectoring. Also the one offered to India is the latest version of typhoon.
Rafale has also proved itself in Afg.

 

[tallboy123]

come on select Euro fighter and finish this tender....

 

[khatarnak gunda]

if cost life cycle is included then i think f-18 beats every other fighter.
if i am wrong then correct me

if i am not wrong, gripen is cheapest if life cucle cost is considered. gripen is not my choice though.

 

[Super Falcon]

eurofighter is top contander i think now

 

[STAR SCREAM]

 

[STAR SCREAM]

AWESUM PHOTOSHOPED

http://chaffandflare.blogspot.com

 

[Archie]

eurofighter is top contander i think now

Well , the shortlist will be anounced in feb with contract being signed by june-july 2011
So we will know the results in the next 6 months , then hopefully we can put the mrca thread to rest or maybe some fanboys will begun another year long discussion as to why India chose one aircraft over another

As per my Info Rafale , Super Hornet , Typhoon and Gripen have pretty much an equal chance with each of them having there own Pros and Cons

However as per my sources
There is a split in different ministries and iaf as to what aircraft to be chosen
Finance Ministry Prefers the Gripen ,becoz
It has fullfilled all the requirements of IAF ie it has passed all the test satisfactorily though not really exceeded IAF expectations
It is not only the 2nd cheapest aircraft but also has the lowest Life cycle cost
Ministry of defence Prefers F/A18 Super Hornet , becoz
Antony has signed several deals with USA through FMS , be it P8I ,C130J, C17 Aircraft or the M777 Howitzers , even future contracts for attack and Heavy lift Helicopters valued at 2 Billion USD would go to american ,
Defence Ministry feels that becoz of ever increasing friendship with US , we are pretty much safe from any future sanction and also becoz US is trying to project India as a counter balance to China
So there is no harm in procuring american hardware
BuT IAF PREFERS Typhoon or Rafale ,becoz
These 2 aircraft have the most opertuanities for upgrade till 2040 ,they are designed from start for low RCS hence would still be capable when all major countries would be fielding 5th gen aircraft .
Indian Airforce is still wary of USA and the fact US could object to the use of these aircraft for carrying out any possible invasion and for delivering Nuclear weapons
Considering the fact that these aircraft would be the main stay of Indian ground attack fleet , hence they would normally be used for offensive operations not defensive , which the US could object to.

Another Info which You guys might find interesting is that MOD IS THINKING OF INCREASING the Number of MMRCA squadrons to 7 from present 6 sqds ie we can expect contract to be signed for 144-147 aircrafts instead of 126 aircrafts
I think Sri Lankan had mentioned this new a few months ago

 

[sancho]

Hi Archie

However as per my sources

What kind of sources are we talking here?

BuT IAF PREFERS Typhoon or Rafale ,becoz
These 2 aircraft have the most opertuanities for upgrade till 2040 ,they are designed from start for low RCS hence would still be capable when all major countries would be fielding 5th gen aircraft.
Indian Airforce is still wary of USA and the fact US could object to the use of these aircraft for carrying out any possible invasion and for delivering Nuclear weapons
Considering the fact that these aircraft would be the main stay of Indian ground attack fleet , hence they would normally be used for offensive operations not defensive , which the US could object to.

If your sources are correct and future potential as well as strike capabilities are the important requirements for IAF, the EF fits only to the first one, while lack behind in the latter. So the final decision should be, between Rafale and F18SH.

Another Info which You guys might find interesting is that MOD IS THINKING OF INCREASING the Number of MMRCA squadrons to 7 from present 6 sqds ie we can expect contract to be signed for 144-147 aircrafts instead of 126 aircrafts

That's not correct, 1 MMRCA squad means 18 fighters,that's why the first 18 will come directly from the vendor, that means 126 fighters, are already 7 squadrons.

 

[angeldemon_007]

@ STAR SCREAM
The pic is very cool.

Another Info which You guys might find interesting is that MOD IS THINKING OF INCREASING the Number of MMRCA squadrons to 7 from present 6 sqds ie we can expect contract to be signed for 144-147 aircrafts instead of 126 aircrafts

Yeah Sancho is right.
But there are reports for increasing the deal to 200 and these extra fighters will be naval variant.
I think it would be a right move but we should announce this right now instead of buying the same aircraft 2-3 years after which will mean we might have to spend 10-20 million $ extra on each fighter.
So a wise decision will be to increase the numbers right now at this price tag if we really want to increase the deal in future.
I hope MOD and IAF learn message from SU30 mki fiasco.
Also, is there any news about the revised offers from the contenders??/ because previous offer is over and now either the contender will extend the same offer or revise them.