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MRCA conteders narrowed to Eurofighter and Rafael: IAF

Exactly my point - that is what I meant when I said apples to apples and lets talk in reference to this deal not overall tech levels!

my question remains why do we go in with the US when we have as good if not better planes to go with without the EUMA?

Also, no hard feelings I am just trying to think rationally! thats it!
:cheers:

Why so afraid of EUMA. Even if F-18 is found to be the best of the lot for us, we wont sign the deal if there is anything in the contract we don't like.
 
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Why so afraid of EUMA. Even if F-18 is found to be the best of the lot for us, we wont sign the deal if there is anything in the contract we don't like.

man EUMA is the problem and which is why i don't think SH will win!

I may be completely wrong and the babus might just turn out to be complete sell outs!

I hope that does not happen! and we make a wise choice maintaining our sovereignty.
:cheers:
 
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man EUMA is the problem and which is why i don't think SH will win!

I may be completely wrong and the babus might just turn out to be complete sell outs!

I hope that does not happen! and we make a wise choice maintaining our sovereignty.
:cheers:

Have a little faith in our leaders. Not much, even I don't have much (!!), but just a little.
Besides, can you tell me the clause in the agreement that you are so afraid of?
 
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I guess they lack confidence, some are stuck in the past in a time when the Indian economy was not intertwined with world economies and sanctions on India had limited global impact. They lack confidence in the ability of Indo/Israeli lobby to protect their interest in Washington. They lack confidence in their own global stature and capability.

And many foolishly believe European offerings have no American content and are immune to sanctions :disagree:


P8-I, LWH , C-130 , C-17; Are all these deals indicators of lack of confidence ? And as far as differance between confidence levels of indian gov and indian people is concerned just tell me how many of those indians who have opposed the F-xx jets on this forum have opposed P8 I or C 130 deals? India trusts russians and to some extent europeans more than america, is it so unreasonable?:azn:

I can give my car keys to a co worker for safekeeping , but would I trust him to keep my wedding ring? :angel:
 
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Have a little faith in our leaders. Not much, even I don't have much (!!), but just a little.
Besides, can you tell me the clause in the agreement that you are so afraid of?

Sorry let me make this a little clear - Since we have already signed the EUMA (I was under the impression that we need that for every individual purchase rather than a generic version) - It gives US the right to inspect the toys that they sell us - also we are not allowed to make any alterations to it like we are so used to making to our MKIs - without the US approval.

Also, we will not be able to get other countries to upgrade our systems or open competitive bids for any maintainance/upgrade contracts - here we can work with the israelis and the french.

So if we chose the SH that would mean EUMA comes into effect with respect to this deal as well and will be binding on us for as many defense purchases we make - essentialy giving our control to the US.

I do not think any important defence equipment deals like war planes which are absolutely critical to our sovereignty should go to the United States!

:cheers:
 
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I guess they lack confidence, some are stuck in the past in a time when the Indian economy was not intertwined with world economies and sanctions on India had limited global impact. They lack confidence in the ability of Indo/Israeli lobby to protect their interest in Washington. They lack confidence in their own global stature and capability.

And many foolishly believe European offerings have no American content and are immune to sanctions :disagree:

If we were to believe this report, its only talking about what IAF sees as a good aircraft after all the evaluations. Now, what GOI thinks may be completely different! Its premature to make statements about confidence of Indians, but as far as the confidence of the IAF is concerned, it seems they like the Euro Fighter and Rafael more.
 
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I really don't understand the issues of Indians with American equipment.

The problem is that the US cannot be trusted.Today the US will be our friend and tomorrow our foe for some reason.The US has a use and throw policy which it applies to every nation.U really expect us to have very close relations with a country that threatened us with a nuclear attack during the 71 conflict.I am actually pretty dissapointed with the IAF as they are going for th C-130 and the C-17s.Agreed they are good planes but what if in the future, ties between US and India are not so warm?I would rather go for the airbus 400M transport instead of C-17s .
 
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Sorry let me make this a little clear - Since we have already signed the EUMA (I was under the impression that we need that for every individual purchase rather than a generic version) - It gives US the right to inspect the toys that they sell us - also we are not allowed to make any alterations to it like we are so used to making to our MKIs - without the US approval.

Also, we will not be able to get other countries to upgrade our systems or open competitive bids for any maintainance/upgrade contracts - here we can work with the israelis and the french.

So if we chose the SH that would mean EUMA comes into effect with respect to this deal as well and will be binding on us for as many defense purchases we make - essentialy giving our control to the US.

I do not think any important defence equipment deals like war planes which are absolutely critical to our sovereignty should go to the United States!

:cheers:

What the EUMA would be if we choose any of the teen series, we dont know yet.
Also, we went to Israel/France for MKI avionics because they were giving us better product. This may not be the case with US. Why count the chickens now, lets just wait.

US would not do anything that would affect our national security, thats for sure. They are trusting us that neither we would let Russians see their stuff, nor reverse engineer ourself. We should trust them a bit too.
 
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LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!

Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.

Assuming these two aircraft are the only ones moving to the next level, which do you think the government should choose and why? Let's see what everyone thinks. Vote below and post your comments.
 
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No you can't. European tech is inferior and will remain inferior.

It's naive to assume that mrca contest is only about selecting the best technology for the iaf. If it would hae been so then we would have had a fresh competition with entrants like su 35, F 35 , Taranis , neuron et al.
What we are looking for are machines which will satisfy our operational requirements to the best extent possible. These requirements are in turn based on our current and future threat perceptions, which as of now do not warrent a silver bullet.

There is a difference between selecting a beauty contest winner ( where you just look at the stats and select the best ) and choosing a wife !( where you select what's best for you ) :angel:
 
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Check before if already another thread is running or not.

Threads merged
 
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Another Speculation?
MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!
There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.

As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal – the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.

Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.

The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.

According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

“The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.”

The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."

Price:

The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.

By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.

A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, “The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,” adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.

Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:

It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.

DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.

US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.

Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.

US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet

Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.

Said a senior IAF officer, “The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.”

According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."

US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, “Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,” according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).

Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG

Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.

In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, “The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.”

Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.

European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon

The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).

The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.

French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.

The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.

The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.

Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, “This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25%, 50% or 100% fuel load.” According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.

The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.

The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.

Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)

Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.

With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.

Coming up next : What is causing a delay in this deal?
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Posted by Suman Sharma at 11:53 PM

Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!
 
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