Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

[notorious_eagle]

I do not think there is operational hms in PAF.

Wow such Enthusiam....

But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.

Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.

Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes it all.

History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.

Carpet bombing within their territory, please make a distinction of that.

 

[Storm Force]

At Master Khan

Re your Post

If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.

You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.

TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.

Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.

SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D

Has the guy state

Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win

 

[Bratva]

At Master Khan

Re your Post


You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.

TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.

Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.

SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D

Has the guy state

Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win

Holy mother of flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles..... F-16 with it's JHMCS would be sitting duck for SU-30

For reference watch dog fighting video b/w Euro fighter and F-16's

 

[MastanKhan]

At Master Khan

Re your Post


You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.

TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.

Sir,

8 BVR's is the reason that SU 30 was built----a BVR truck---the thrust vectoring is its weakest link and that will be the cause of its demise----.

You need to answer one question that I have asked every indian poster and never got an answer---at what speed would the pilot use ' thrust vectoring ' in actual combat-----he cannot use it at 500 knots---he cannot use it at 350 knots either----so tell me the speed and tell me what kind of G forces he is going to experience----.

In the air shows---these planes are going the cobra at barely above the stall speed---possibly around 100 knots or less----.

 

[Nishan-101]

But the time is telling that PAC should be producing 300 of the JF-17s Block-II and Block-IIIs to replace the existing Mirages and F-7s along with 100 Dual seat JF-17s for LIFT.

 

[aliyusuf]

Whoa ... why don't you throw in a couple of hundred sea thunders to secure our territorial waters ... for good measure.
I like him, he's funny!

 

[SQ8]

Sir,

8 BVR's is the reason that SU 30 was built----a BVR truck---the thrust vectoring is its weakest link and that will be the cause of its demise----.

You need to answer one question that I have asked every indian poster and never got an answer---at what speed would the pilot use ' thrust vectoring ' in actual combat-----he cannot use it at 500 knots---he cannot use it at 350 knots either----so tell me the speed and tell me what kind of G forces he is going to experience----.

In the air shows---these planes are going the cobra at barely above the stall speed---possibly around 100 knots or less----.

The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.

I do not think there is operational hms in PAF. They will rather invest in jf17 then upgrade some p or pg. Jf17 b 3 will be the first with Hms.

I would not be so sure.

 

[MastanKhan]

The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.



I would not be so sure.

Hi,

You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.

 

[Munir]

The true usefullness of the TVC remains best for last ditch manoeuvres. IAF displays with the Su-30MKI did not involve TVC .. the aircraft is fairly manoeuvrable already. When used, the TVC literally drops the aircraft like a brick which in anything other than a 1vs1 fight is inviting certain death.



I would not be so sure.

Non us there is none. F16... We have seen it more then once. But i am not that focussed on us products... But tell me... Hms without aim 9x is like egyptian f16 without bvr...

Hi,

You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.

there is advantage in pushing the plane beyond normal flight envelope during take of or air combat. And indeed it adds DRAG. But do not forget the extra weight, maintenance or ir/rcs... And with better and better wvr weapons there is little left to go for tvc

 

[aliyusuf]

What advantages can an HMS provide if there is no HOBS capable AAM to utilize it?

 

[Munir]

At Master Khan

Re your Post


You forgat at WVR the SU30MKI is the best fighter in South Asia.

TVC engines gives the flankers massive advantages in extreme AOA that are not possible on any other fighter including F16.
in a WVR dogfight the Flanker will win evey time. against anything PAF has.

Having said that IAF will avoid WVR and try to the JOB from BVR avoid both pilot and plane lossess.

SU-30MKI vs Block 50/52 F-16C/D

Has the guy state

Flanker v F16/52 in a DOG FIGHT the flanker with TVC+hms+ R73 WVR missles will win

Flanker with tvc is still huge target. For everyone. And would you go into wvr with that size? I don't think so my friend. Using tvc is bleeding energy. That is against all laws at the moment

 

[SQ8]

Non us there is none. F16... We have seen it more then once. But i am not that focussed on us products... But tell me... Hms without aim 9x is like egyptian f16 without bvr...

I am not referring to the F-16.
Regardless, you seem to have a lot of sources.. maybe you'll find out.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

You know why the TCV is done at extremely slow speed and mostly in air shows---because at higher speeds the G forces the pilot may black out and pass out---his harness can break off thus slamming him into the instrumentation---the aircraft may suffer catastrophic damage---and you know that slow speed is death to an aircraft.

Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn.

Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn.

Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.

Hi,

I meant to say the fabled 'Cobra' maneavuer.

 

[Basel]

Hi,
If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.
I would be at a loss to understand as to why iaf would want to give away its advantage---if BVR was the advantage that PAF---would it want to lose it at the very first oppurtunity---. PAF pilots have been trained hard to use the assets and strengths of their aircrafts to get an upper hand.
As for as paf no show at kargil---they actually had nothing to show up with---f16's could harldy fly 3 to 4 days in full conflict---,

Your point is valid that Su-30s were inducted for BVR first and then WVR second, they were meant to stay within Indian border launch salvos and return if they are supporting Mig-29 / Mirage / Jags but after induction of AWACS on Pakistani side their surprise element has lost and PAF will knew where they are and remember F-7s are point defense fighters they will only be launched when enemy will be very close to borders and IAF also knows that.

PAF have definitely devised strategy to counter that threat, to me Mig-29s close to border are more threat than Su-30s, because they have been upgraded and now can carry more fuel and more nimble then Su-30s. If Su-30 crossed into our airspace in any near furture pre PAK-FA, Rafael conflict, then it means that IAF is not confident enough against PAF, now because their majority front line fighter force is equal or more advance then our F-16, we don't have any fighter jet which have sensor fusion available that is going to be available to IAF and in number of fighter variants, which will allow them to use Su-30 only when need not regularly.