Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

[Munir]

I am not referring to the F-16.
Regardless, you seem to have a lot of sources.. maybe you'll find out.

I cannot disclose everything. So till then we definately have no hms (f16 excluded).

Not exactly, TVC also has a lot of usefulness at supersonic speeds as it can aid manoeuvring. Specifically for Stealth aircraft like the F-22 , it can allow for changes in attitude without the aircraft moving its control surfaces and compromising RCS.
It can also aid in supersonic manoeuvring if the controls are less than effective in executing a turn.

Also,TVC applications are different in different aircraft. The Su-30MKI for e.g. has a "fake" 3D system whereby its nozzles while moving in two dimensions are manipulated by the FCS in such a way that they act in three axis. This does mean however that its thrust is complexity off its flight path when its TVC goes active which also contributes to drag.

Sir, you are correct but if one pushes the aircraft into only tvc controlled flight the whole plane starts to add drag. And kinetic energy is almost always more important then changing nose position.

 

[SQ8]

I cannot disclose everything. So till then we definately have no hms (f16 excluded).


Sir, you are correct but if one pushes the aircraft into only tvc controlled flight the whole plane starts to add drag. And kinetic energy is almost always more important then changing nose position.

The first point ill agree with till disclosure changes for the both of us.

The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring.

Long story short, the American and not the Russians were really the first to truly push the idea of TVC.. yet at the end of the day they decided that its actual benefits in modern combat are just not worth the extra weight and cost...and this was back in the early 90's when the JSF requirement was being finalized. The AIM-9x, IRIS-T, ASRAAM and other HOBS and high agility missiles were just on the horizon.. and then the higher Pk of more mature BVR systems came into play and with it the effectiveness(or rather the margin of advantage) of TVC went down further.

TVC is still a great plus as it does give a pilot a greater range of options to use within combat. But many of these options have a very limited window and especially not in the speed area where most fighter combat occurs. The F-22 is deadly not because it has TVC.. but because its aerodynamics are already so superior that it gains and retains energy in a fight rapidly. The TVC just adds on to what it has. The same goes for the MKI, its already a VERY good airframe with excellent aerodynamics.. but whether it truly needed the TVC or not is debatable.

 

[Informant]

The first point ill agree with till disclosure changes for the both of us.

The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring.

Long story short, the American and not the Russians were really the first to truly push the idea of TVC.. yet at the end of the day they decided that its actual benefits in modern combat are just not worth the extra weight and cost...and this was back in the early 90's when the JSF requirement was being finalized. The AIM-9x, IRIS-T, ASRAAM and other HOBS and high agility missiles were just on the horizon.. and then the higher Pk of more mature BVR systems came into play and with it the effectiveness(or rather the margin of advantage) of TVC went down further.

TVC is still a great plus as it does give a pilot a greater range of options to use within combat. But many of these options have a very limited window and especially not in the speed area where most fighter combat occurs. The F-22 is deadly not because it has TVC.. but because its aerodynamics are already so superior that it gains and retains energy in a fight rapidly. The TVC just adds on to what it has. The same goes for the MKI, its already a VERY good airframe with excellent aerodynamics.. but whether it truly needed the TVC or not is debatable.

You are a leaky ship

 

[MastanKhan]

The first point ill agree with till disclosure changes for the both of us.

The second is a little more fluid as the idea of TVC alone for low observable aircraft has been mooted for quite a while. All control surfaces add drag(most changes in direction will cause airflow disruption to different extents) .. but the most damage is caused when TVC is used to force an AoA beyond stall(which can actually occur at any airspeed, just the AoA differs depending) or what is post stall manoeuvring.

.

Hi,

Please share a little more detail in what you are saying. Thank you.

 

[Munir]

As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.

 

[aliyusuf]

As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.

May I dare to ask what are the advantages of a helmet mounted sight, if there are no HOBS capable AAM to utilize it with?

 

[Munir]

One can concentrate on other things then looking at avionics. Besides that aim9l is pretty decent weapon just like pl5e. Even in bvr mode one can look around and get a good situational awarenessssss

 

[SQ8]

You are a leaky ship

As far as i know there is NO hms system operational other then f16. But i was nut surpised to see 4 bvr on the Pg. Just like 4 bvr on jf17. Where PAF never released pictures up close from armed planes it suddenly rains secrets.

I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.

But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.

 

[Informant]

I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.

But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.

Still issues with swaying the supplier.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

Please share a little more detail in what you are saying. Thank you.

Any disruption(control surface here) over the surface of a smooth fluid foil causes the airflow to be disrupted and creates drag.
Additionally, the movement of a control surface from its flush(neutral) position on a Low observable body will create a change in its reflectivity and increase its RCS.

What TVC allows is the ability to keep the airframe completely smooth(no RCS changes or surface breaks) by using thrust direction to point the aircraft. This ability is very useful for a stealth airframe to make flight path changes without exposing itself through the movement of its control surfaces.

Still issues with swaying the supplier.

Well, its not for the F-16 anyway. So the swaying may be or not be swinging or swaying at all.

 

[Informant]

Any disruption(control surface here) over the surface of a smooth fluid foil causes the airflow to be disrupted and creates drag.
Additionally, the movement of a control surface from its flush(neutral) position on a Low observable body will create a change in its reflectivity and increase its RCS.

What TVC allows is the ability to keep the airframe completely smooth(no RCS changes or surface breaks) by using thrust direction to point the aircraft. This ability is very useful for a stealth airframe to make flight path changes without exposing itself through the movement of its control surfaces.



Well, its not for the F-16 anyway. So the swaying may be or not be swinging or swaying at all.

We are not getting the 9-X.

 

[Munir]

I know that the JF-17 has no HMS yet.. but there is a HMS system operational within the PAF with a (under testing??)missile that is most likely IIR since it "sees" the aircraft much like below and knows what is flare and what not.

But then, that is the quagmire of the PAF. You ask them directly,you'll think they are stuck in the 80s..
stroll around casually and ask indirect questions.. and they'll directly tell you what is up.

If true we would have not bought brazilian wvr older versions. Neother are we able to pass producers like france, germany or china.

 

[Donatello]

If true we would have not bought brazilian wvr older versions. Neother are we able to pass producers like france, germany or china.

Perhaps diversifying? China cannot provide everything, not at this stage yet, plus France and Germany wouldn't sell their latest, other than maybe some joint venture on IR seeker technology.

 

[Munir]

We have copied matra magic in the past. That good that the french did not see the difference but i doubt we can get such seekers that easy anywhere.

 

[Kompromat]

We have copied matra magic in the past. That good that the french did not see the difference but i doubt we can get such seekers that easy anywhere.

We need to work on the front of developing our own WVRAAM and BVRAAMs in the long run through JVs with states like China, Brazil and S.Africa.