Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

[Alphacharlie]

First of all, the term ''shied away'' is nothing short of chest thumping and be in love with yourself. Both air forces remained within their respective borders and even tracked each others flights, when the Indian MiGs ingressed into Pakistani airspace, they both found out to their cost. As for the Atlantique incident, firstly it's against PAF's doctrine to shoot down an unarmed aircraft especially outside a total war, the IAF, OTOH, after loosing the two MiGs and a Chopper was desperate to salvage some pride hence it prided it'self by shooting down an unarmed airliner size aircraft..... later PAF became the first air force to shoot down a IAI Searcher II UAV of the IAF.

Janab - You have my respect for being Closest to Truth.

19th September 1965. The twin-engine Indian Beechcraft unarmed was shot by Flg Off (Retd) Qais M. Hussain 50 miles inside Indian Territory by F86 isnt this breach of PAF Orbat.

Being your foe for me- Atlantique was unprotected instead of being unarmed.

 

[Windjammer]

Janab - You have my respect for being true.

Being your foe for me- Atlantique was unprotected instead of being unarmed.

I don't understand the term unprotected, basically it's or was an ASW aircraft which was on a training flight when it was attacked, had it been on a mission then it may have required a fighter escort or something.
The incident of Beechcraft happened during a full scale war over enemy territory, on the contrary, when a chopper belonging to an Indian energy minister accidentally strayed into Pak air space, albeit intercepted, it was harmlessly escorted out.

 

[Alphacharlie]

I don't understand the term unprotected, basically it's or was an ASW aircraft which was on a training flight when it was attacked, had it been on a mission then it may have required a fighter escort or something.

Sir

19th September 1965. The twin-engine Indian Beechcraft unarmed was shot by Flg Off (Retd) Qais M. Hussain 50 miles inside Indian Territory by F86 isnt this breach of PAF Orbat.

 

[Basel]

If you state AirComabt will be WVR - Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.
Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.

You are talking about disputed LOC where due to International Community pressure PAF was not in position to go aggressive and at that time PAF was flying CAPs at very high sortie rates all over Pakistan, if they were convinced that they can't handle their foes IAF and there will be no WVR battles then why should they have put their pilots in harms way? I still remember Mirages flying from Karachi Airport very low and very fast and have never seen those type of Mirages again, even never have seen that color scheme, it was very unique one but very cool too. PAF had exercised with many countries in which avoiding BVR tactics were included which meant that PAF pilots in 1999 knew how to handle BVR attack at that time although they may have taken loss of few planes but all BVR launches in 1999 would have not been successful.

On international borders in any air battle BVRs will be used but not necessarily in every engagement as it also depend how PAF plan to handle it foe IAF as they knew their weaknesses and strengths, due to close proximity of FOBs most engagements will be WVRs as both sides will be using AWACS and other force multipliers.

F7PG already have good WVRAAM's cued up with very effective HMS.

What I meant is that we should be able to field WVRAAM + HMS + IRST at least equal to quality of IAF is fielding if we can not field better as they are superior in platforms so our platforms need better systems to come close to them.

 

[Munir]

I do not think there is operational hms in PAF. They will rather invest in jf17 then upgrade some p or pg. Jf17 b 3 will be the first with Hms.

Wvr is so overrated. It is like my d is longer then yours... The longer the bvr range the bigger the weight. The longer the opponent has to evade and there is a new era with drfm... Kill ratio of usa against iraci are not representing he reality of most battlefields.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Then let me highlight why PAF shyed away in 1999.

Not true. Both sides were not engaged in a full blown shooting war, they both stayed within their respective borders.

Gentlemen - If I can SHOOT an Allegator by a Gun - Why should I use a Spear.... This simple logic xplains use BVR against WVR missile.

I would agree with you if the distance between Pakistan and India was that of 1000 miles, but when your right next to each other ROE change. Whats the distance between Jallandhar and Sargodha when your flying Mach 1? Due to geographical realities, majority of aerial engagements will be WVR. One only needs to see how both AF's train, despite acquiring BVR Tech, both sides still place majority of their emphasis on WVR Combat. You train as you fight and fight as you train.

I do not think there is operational hms in PAF.

Has been operational fore more than a decade on the PG's and ROSE Upgraded Mirages. Newer F16's features JHMCS.

 

[elitepilot09]

Can you illustrate in which case will I like to give away my Technological edge & take chance.....
Its like Saying F22 will fly with Landing Gear Open & go for an Air Interdiction sortie.

Ok, heres my question for you then sir, why do some of the best Air Forces in the world employ sidewinders in tandem with AMRAAMs? Why do America, Russia, Israel, France etc. bother to even to continue to R&D these missiles? And once you've done that, explain to me why the IAF employs missiles such as the R-73 on it's Mig-29's or SU-30's... or even the R.550 Magic on it's Mirage. Are you telling me the IAF seniors who purchased these missiles are stupid?

Surely, according to you that is, there is no "case" in which SRAAMs are used... so why?

Congratulations you are Right.
By the way why did you not pay back for 10 AUG 1999 incident ? with your Superiority....

Who said anything about an incident? We are merely discussing BVR and WVR. Stop taking this personal and bringing up "incidents." This is a discussion forum, not where you make yourself feel better by boasting about shooting down an unarmed aircraft.

Its like Saying F22 will fly with Landing Gear Open & go for an Air Interdiction sortie.

I have to admit though... this takes the cake for the most feckless analogy I've ever heard. This sentence is so blatantly stupid that I'm not gonna bother with it.

Although, if you were in the cockpit of an F-22 with a bogey 80-km out, I can totally see you pulling down your landing gear down.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Storm Force i will agree that PAF need to put much better WVR missiles on all of its fighter with at least good quality HMS if HMD is not possible and F-7PG also fall in this category. The reason for it is that many future air battles in Indo Pak scenario will still be WVRs ones.

Hi,

If it gets within WVR that would mean that IAF pilots had very poor training---secondly the whole and sole reason for owning the SU 30 was negated ---those 8-10 BVR's that the su carries---just got neutralized---and the massive advantage that the su30 had was lost.

I would be at a loss to understand as to why iaf would want to give away its advantage---if BVR was the advantage that PAF---would it want to lose it at the very first oppurtunity---. PAF pilots have been trained hard to use the assets and strengths of their aircrafts to get an upper hand.

As for as paf no show at kargil---they actually had nothing to show up with---f16's could harldy fly 3 to 4 days in full conflict---,

 

[Viper 94]

Mirages with rose upgrades is quiet a potent fighter
they have night attack capability as well as BVR, these aircraft are also capable of firing Raad cruise missile giving the excellent stand off capability and not to mention they are capable of arial refueling now . F-7 PG is also quiet capable it 20% more maneuverable then f-7ps and can carry LGBs for strike roles
I do agree that they are old airframes and need to be replaced asap
If we take out SU-30s, Paf is just as capable as Iaf qualitatively
I have often argued on many post why Paf need a dedicated air superiority fighter

 

[MastanKhan]

I have often argued on many post why Paf need a dedicated air superiority fighter

Hi,

I would say that at least 2 sqdrn's of dedicated air superiority fighters and another 75 F16's----- 2 sqdrn's of new Blk 52's and rest used ones that are mlu'd.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Wow such Enthusiam....

But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.

Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.

Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes it all.

History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.

 

[elitepilot09]

Ok, heres my question for you then sir, why do some of the best Air Forces in the world employ sidewinders in tandem with AMRAAMs? Why do America, Russia, Israel, France etc. bother to even to continue to R&D these missiles? And once you've done that, explain to me why the IAF employs missiles such as the R-73 on it's Mig-29's or SU-30's... or even the R.550 Magic on it's Mirage. Are you telling me the IAF seniors who purchased these missiles are stupid?

Surely, according to you that is, there is no "case" in which SRAAMs are used... so why?



Who said anything about an incident? We are merely discussing BVR and WVR. Stop taking this personal and bringing up "incidents." This is a discussion forum, not where you make yourself feel better by boasting about shooting down an unarmed aircraft.



I have to admit though... this takes the cake for the most feckless analogy I've ever heard. This sentence is so blatantly stupid that I'm not gonna bother with it.

Although, if you were in the cockpit of an F-22 with a bogey 80-km out, I can totally see you pulling down your landing gear down.

Wow such Enthusiam....

But History will not given you chance again to rewrite History.

Nor will History be Botherered about High Sortie rate of PAF Mirages.

Nor will History be Bothered about IAF 2a/c losses. At the end -Victor takes it all.

History is written with fact they PA chaps were desimated by IAF carpet Bombing & PAF was doing Nothing.

Answer my questions please. If you wanna hide, go under a rock somewhere. I've attached my post above for your reference.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Answer my questions please. If you wanna hide, go under a rock somewhere. I've attached my post above for your reference.

Gentleman -
WVR Combat is 20KM or Less when I have ample of Missles with range 80km plus why should I even Bother to come close. FOr the same reason I have Bought AWACs to get areial Picture. Gone are Days of Bahadri and Jazba.

In any Aircombat In past 20 years, starting Gulf WAR -1..... I have not come of Any instance when Aggresors have left BVR edge and jumped to WVR combat.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For dominant ADF's. BVR it is all the way---the WVR missiles are there because of the left over space. As no major air wars have been fought to finally make the decision what it would be---.

The U S is not going to make the mistake of putting its 200 milion F22 and pitch it against a 50 million plane for a WVR strike. WVR is not going to die just like that----. A war between two major air forces will decide its fate.

 

[FNFAL]

WVR cannot be written off.
No BVR missile guarantees a kill. In a fast converging head on confrontation with two equally matched foes, the same can quickly turn into a WVR combat. Factor in that most decent aircrafts have reduced RCS with jamming, the detection range will be reduced and gaining a "lock" will be reduced, even if missiles were to home in on the jamming source The edge would be the guy with a better radar and higher standoff distance missile. And that is why we see agile missile increasing their ranges. And remember not always would AWACS be available.
And when the push comes to shove , pilots would prefer to take out his foe with a capable WVR instead of getting sucked in a gun fight.