Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

[JohnWick]

Guess the city and you will have your answer
View attachment 566537

What this city is to do with the number of F-7 we have?

 

[Khafee]

What this city is to do with the number of F-7 we have?

Not number, the place of the exercise, where history was made with F7 & f22 in the same arena.

I think we have lost around 12 single-seat PGs. And while it is a marked improvement over the baseline F-7M/P, and has a niche role to play in the air interdiction role, its not capable enough in the coming decade due to electronic obsolescence. Mind you, its upgraded but with technology that is still 30 years old.
PAF produced the first Grifo set in KARF in October 2000. The radar development started all the way back in 1990.

http://babriet.tripod.com/airforce/stat/statgrifo.htm

I googled and my decades old site came up in the results haha

Does the F7 have data link?

 

[Dazzler]

Not number, the place of the exercise, where history was made with F7 & f22 in the same arena.


Does the F7 have data link?

Yes, link 17.

 

[araz]

It could be interesting if PAF bought 50 F-7PGs second hand from China (China is retiring these in large numbers), had them rebuilt, with an AESA radar in the nose and modern avionics. Armed with two SD-10s and 2 PL-10s, they could serve as deadly point defense fighters, and act as close air support for the army.

100 such aircraft as the second line fighters for PAF would not be bad at all.

i see the logic but cant help but feel that the limitations of the platform are dictating PAF decision making. Why else would we go for the M3s from Egypt rather than getting newer air frames from China while it was producing them.I also suspect that the Chinese airframes do not have any meaningful life left in them.
This is a backward step and the 200 million you are looking to spend on getting fodder for the enemy can be utilized better with the Block 3s (even if we get 30 platforms). Case in point PAF ducked out of the Sabre 2 programme fairly early on. I was in UK at the time(1988) and met up with a few Aeronautical MSC/PHD level students from Cranwell. Their contention was that the money sunk into the project was a wasted effort as it did not take away the basic limitations of the platform ie short range., small nose cone and lack of upgradability. PAF perseveres with the M3/5s primarily due to longer Airframe life and space available for upgrades. I know even this is not ideal but our financial situation demands appropriate decisions.
My own thought is that PAF puts whatever it has in its kitty and goes for J31, 2-3 squadrons in 2023-25 time frame provided the plane still exists and then sits back and works with Project Azm. I strongly suspect the Chinese will not let you have them till you buy some J10s and we will end up buying J10s
A

 

[Armchair]

i see the logic but cant help but feel that the limitations of the platform are dictating PAF decision making. Why else would we go for the M3s from Egypt rather than getting newer air frames from China while it was producing them.I also suspect that the Chinese airframes do not have any meaningful life left in them.
This is a backward step and the 200 million you are looking to spend on getting fodder for the enemy can be utilized better with the Block 3s (even if we get 30 platforms). Case in point PAF ducked out of the Sabre 2 programme fairly early on. I was in UK at the time(1988) and met up with a few Aeronautical MSC/PHD level students from Cranwell. Their contention was that the money sunk into the project was a wasted effort as it did not take away the basic limitations of the platform ie short range., small nose cone and lack of upgradability. PAF perseveres with the M3/5s primarily due to longer Airframe life and space available for upgrades. I know even this is not ideal but our financial situation demands appropriate decisions.
My own thought is that PAF puts whatever it has in its kitty and goes for J31, 2-3 squadrons in 2023-25 time frame provided the plane still exists and then sits back and works with Project Azm. I strongly suspect the Chinese will not let you have them till you buy some J10s and we will end up buying J10s
A

Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.

 

[araz]

Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.

I wish it was that simple. The considerations will be.
A. Airframe life.
B. Will the engine be able to support all the new software/ hardware you want to put in. New engine will be another nightmare.
C. Nose cone size and will it support the PD radar you want to put in.
D. Upgrade of the whole wiring, conversion of analogue to digital system. So essentially a new cockpit.
E. Calculating shift in COG and whether this will require modifications.
F. Will Red bear/yellow dragon approve the transfer of equipment.
G. OEM approval??(dont know whether it will be required).
H. Time in testing evaluating and tweeking.
I At the end of it all you have 50s tech with a life not exceeding 5 -10 years.
J. Do you have the necessary skill set and time money and manpower to achieve it? If not where do you get help from and at what cost. French upgrades are never cheap.
Jet fighters are very sophisticated pieces of machinery. You will need extensive testing after each stage. I personally think PAF simply does not have the manpower, metallurgical support or money and the product is time expired so you still have a machine with limited life 3-5 hardpoints and probably not enough fuel capacity to achieve what you want to achieve with the current/ new engine.
Look I am by no means an expert and my learning is based on learning from friends and reading literature. I see all these problems which may have been the reason PAF sent fighters over to French for ROSE upgrade. Feel free to think around ways but I dont think there is much that can be done. The M3/5 is at the limit of its upgrade and cannot be upgraded anymore
Wasslam.
A

 

[TOPGUN]

Well, even if you leave aside upgrading the F-7PGs, it would cost a minimal amount to upgrade the Mirage IIIs with JFT block 2/3 PD radars and electronics - as they get upgraded to near block 3 standard.

Araz bro, so you really do think that PAF will end up having J-10's ?

 

[araz]

Araz bro, so you really do think that PAF will end up having J-10's ?

My brother.
If I had my way and if money was not an issue and J31 ready that would be my next buy. But we neither have the mone, nor a ready product to buy. The only other option open to us is the J10. PAF liked what it saw and the progress made by the Chinese. The Chinese want to sell their product and if the terms are right I suspect PAF might do so. We do need an interim product which could either have been more 16s or J10s. The former door is now closed or too unreliable. It therefore points to the latter product.
I still think we need to wait till a squadron of Block3 is inducted and re evaluate. If it exceeds expectations we may carry on, but if a gap is felt then J10 may well be the answer.
A

 

[Armchair]

HI @araz you don't need to change the wiring from analogue to digital for the flight controls. You simply need to change one PD radar for another, one set of cockpit avionics for another. Granted, there is some integration involved, but it isn't as extensive as you are making it out to be, not even a new engine is needed.

If you can keep it flying for 10 more years as you noted, it would be well worth it for PAF or for any air force. Remember, the radar and electronics are coming from the older block JFT, so little cost in hardware. Mainly inhouse integration.

I do think PAF is shopping right now to evaluate her alternatives. Even the MiG-35 is getting a look but the J-10, even in small numbers, makes huge strategic sense. However, PAF may skip the J-10 for something greater than that, despite a long-standing dislike of not fully mature platforms.

 

[TOPGUN]

My brother.
If I had my way and if money was not an issue and J31 ready that would be my next buy. But we neither have the mone, nor a ready product to buy. The only other option open to us is the J10. PAF liked what it saw and the progress made by the Chinese. The Chinese want to sell their product and if the terms are right I suspect PAF might do so. We do need an interim product which could either have been more 16s or J10s. The former door is now closed or too unreliable. It therefore points to the latter product.
I still think we need to wait till a squadron of Block3 is inducted and re evaluate. If it exceeds expectations we may carry on, but if a gap is felt then J10 may well be the answer.
A

Very well said my brother and I agree 100% thank you.

 

[Asian.Century]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1726679273228927478