Military Simulation - The Indo-Pak conflict - A hyperbole

[arjunk]

Simulations are always useful, but my point is there are things which cannot be built into a simulation...... @SQ8 dear, nothing against you ofcourse, just wanted to point out something,

Time to "simulate" this on Arma 3

 

[nahtanbob]

Some food for thought....
..throughout this whole simulation, the big assets....HQ-9 and S400 remain in being....if by chance (i mean indirect approach) HQ-9 or S-400 gets neutralized or disabled, the big advantage other side will have is for everyone to see. You remove either one of them from the equation....then it could get a one-sided match....just one asset, located at one precise location, waiting for....

The S-400 pose a threat to attacking aircraft. They are not game changers in the numbers inducted

 

[PanzerKiel]

The S-400 pose a threat to attacking aircraft. They are not game changers in the numbers inducted

For a military planner, something even posing a threat is enough....it brings more complexities into the attacker's plan, may be another separate strike package, more air effort to take that asset out, more ground effort, more intelligence effort, then the denial plans.......SAMs do exactly that.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Nice thread

 

[S.Y.A]

Some food for thought....
..throughout this whole simulation, the big assets....HQ-9 and S400 remain in being....if by chance (i mean indirect approach) HQ-9 or S-400 gets neutralized or disabled, the big advantage other side will have is for everyone to see. You remove either one of them from the equation....then it could get a one-sided match....just one asset, located at one precise location, waiting for....

thats what I wanted to say, but didnt....

 

[SQ8]

Why not @SQ8 run a full war scenario then. Instead of little tweaks, lets run a full-blown war scenario then. War was never this simple.

Wish it was that easy - actually decided to get down and try the Indian attack scenario with civilian traffic. Sat for 3 hours and couldn’t get it right - ToTs have to be exact , ESMs don’t always line up - Harop drones don’t pick the SAMs, Su-30Mkis abort SEAD missions because the Emitter disappeared.. ELINT cannot pinpoint exact coordinates… I do wish war was simple

@SQ8 Can we change the PAF package to include CM400 and REKIII kits, automatically putting some distance between them and targets? They’re pretty much there to deter Brahmos attacks now. It feels like PAF is fighting with one hand tied behind its back, still trying on H4.

Also, why not include Fatah-1 to the mix?

The JF-17s use REK kits but the CM-400 is AsHM.

 

[Khan vilatey]

I only had a small issue with the simulation , why would Pakistan have a revolt inside her when fighting India. Isn’t india not preparing for a 2.5 front war rather than Pakistan ?

.5 are all the internal insurgencies in India

k

 

[kursed]

The JF-17s use REK kits but the CM-400 is AsHM.

CM-400 started with a land-attack version, anti-ship role came on later. You can be more than sure that they'd be put to use even on land, where needed.

 

[SQ8]

There were some other assets....if we talk about 27 Feb.....which were supposed to come into play on that day from both sides, but mostly Pak could play them while they were able to MOSTLY deny those to the Indians.....those assets might have played a greater role in the ultimate result (and i am not talking about simple assets like EW, Blinders etc).

Those, and now some additional, will again come into play from our side, while we will again seek to deny Indians the use of their assets......

A short incomplete example.....infiltrated SF teams which WERE in enemy area, suitable equipped and having the mission to deny SAR, BDA, post engagement assessment, some were there to exactly pinpoint once their SAR heli took to the air (real-time battle int), some had the mission to neutralize that specific SPYDER battery (we knew it was there) which ultimately (lucky for us...made us literally sweat at one moment, the same battery dried the sweat by doing a Blue on Blue ) took down one of their own heli instead of one of our aircrafts, some teams much deeper (Su-30 wreck etc), some were in overwatch mode in the area of that ammo dump which was bombed, their secondary mission being to ambush the convoy having HVTs which was bound to move out from that place after bombing (they actually did move the HVTs out in a convoy, could have been easily ambushed with both options of air and ground / fire, but we decided that enough had already been done).....

.......Our PAF danced as it wanted on that day, but there were much important assets on ground (humans and technical) which absolutely neutralized and ultimately sapped the will of indians.....these assets provided the carpet on which PAF danced, because they were spread like a carpet on that terrain...

Simulations are always useful, but my point is there are things which cannot be built into a simulation...... @SQ8 dear, nothing against you ofcourse, just wanted to point out something,

Simulations all have limitations - after all, if you see the movie on the hudson river miracle landing and the scene where the simulator apparently makes it with the aircraft to land and it seems they made a mistake(by landing the 320 in the hudson) he says to the effect “we’ve won this one(are exonerated)” . The reason being that the simulation as accurate as it may be doesn’t take into account the human element; which was for that accident the need to assess what happened and then make a decision and in this case the different empathic decisions being made both before and during the events of the 27th or in Any other engagements by any military . Zuckerberg may be able to predict human behavior or preferences but his data cannot predict panic behavior accurately because that doesn’t happen on social media. His algorithm like any other simulation cannot predict whether a Mirage 2000 pilot will decide to stay and fight or in a moment of thinking about self preservation or family decide to call Radar inoperable and bug out.

But, the flip side of it is the old adage “No plan(and ill add simulation) survives contact with the enemy”

 

[Mumm-Ra]

Considering that we're throwing S-400 in the mix, here's a video that shares a couple of scenarios on how the US would conduct SEAD against them. Worth a look

 

[Pak Nationalist]

This was a full on incursion - Adampur and Halwara are fairly inside India and Pakistan doesn’t possess any tactical standoff systems capable of getting that far. In addition, jamming assets need to close a certain distance before they can effectively deter the S-400 otherwise stand off systems will be shot down - A rafale shot down 2 H-4s using the meteor, stand off missiles do show up on radar.

Interesting that H-4s were detected by the Rafales, but the drones would be harder to detect. I do not believe H-4's have a propulsion source, do they? I assume these are dumb bombs with range extension guidance kits. Might have an even lower IR signature, but then again, Meteor mightn't be using IR homing.

 

[SQ8]

Interesting that H-4s were detected by the Rafales, but the drones would be harder to detect. I do not believe H-4's have a propulsion source, do they? I assume these are dumb bombs with range extension guidance kits. Might have an even lower IR signature, but then again, Meteor mightn't be using IR homing.

I believe they do
@denel

 

[kursed]

CM-400 started with a land-attack version, anti-ship role came on later. You can be more than sure that they'd be put to use even on land, where needed.

I see that Sq. Ldr Masood agrees with what I was suggesting to role play in this simulation.

 

[Bilal.]

I see that Sq. Ldr Masood agrees with what I was suggesting to role play in this simulation.

View attachment 810004

PAF should add TL30. It’s like tacit rainbow.

 

[denel]

I believe they do
@denel

H4 do have a booster but that is about it; the rest is just controlled guiding either by command or preassigned target designation with priority switching as required.

what is key feature is the datalink that is very hard to jam; if you were able to use it else where - it is also being used in not only in other e.g. raptor 3; it is also the backbone of many secure telemetry solutions in different areas e.g. bateleur MALE etc; the more newer advancements have been in adaptive aspects (note- those in this field will know what i am talking about but nothing more can be said).

One must keep in mind; it is now 30yrs+ ago.