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MIG 29 deployment near Pakistan border Is PAF ready for the threat ?

Well said.

I didn't really have any source as it was a reply to an opinion and not a fact.

But yes nukes mean MAD and that is to be considered seeing that hypothetically if India were to conduct surgical strikes and Pakistan replies with nukes (that's what the original post implied to which i replied), would it be in Pakistans interests to lose so much in reply to a surgical strike. I'm sure there would be other options on the table as well. For every action the only threat cannot be a nuclear one.

How can a sane person expect a sane action in respect of an insane aggression. No nation goes to war with both hands tied behind its back. The only thing India will be sucessful in is to unite the public opinion in Pakistan against India's aggressive motives. When two parties are holding a gun to eachothers head there can hardly be a civilized solution.
India should also note that it is not US. It can cry foul all it wants but it does not change a thing.
I sincerly wish if the wise heads to prevail in both our countries we will stop building multi billion dollar military threat machines for each other and work for the prosperity of the poor people in both the countries i.e India and Pakistan.:pakistan:
 
Where are you getting your grade A information from fella??

As a military professional, you should know better and learn to respect your adversary.....better learn a thing or two about respect from seniors such as Mr.MuradK (Pray to god for his health)

So much for the "Gentlemen" in the armed forces of your nation.....I pray that the rest of your armed forces are not as arrogant after failing to achieve their objective of "taking Kashmir" for the last 60 years from the "quivering" Indian armed forces and failing to prevent your nation from being split into two ......but hey who's boasting right??

Anyways, we dont need to sacrifice cows over cliffs to win Kashmir, we already have it....now better pull a rabbit out of your arse to change this scenario.....


Don't be so arrogant. As a student of spirituality, let me assure you that a time is indeed approaching when rabbits will be pulled out of nowhere. This is not a forsaken planet. It operates under an elaborate heirarchy of saints under God. They intervene to the extent it is necessary to guide the evolution of this planet. While there may be terribly destructive wars approaching, the end result this time will not be determined by anyone's superior military muscle. Physical technology is nothing compared to the spiritual powers bestowed by God on saints that act as guardians of this world. Every weapon and missile on this planet is under the spiritual control of God's appointed servants. Destruction will only be permitted to an extent, beyond which there shall be a grand intervention by spiritual forces the like of which has not been seen before in mankind's history. All arrogant and oppressive forces will be defeated, whoever they are and whatever religion they claim. So, while you can relish your current illegitimate hold over Kashmir, know that a time for pulling out rabbits is indeed approaching ;)

[Note: my views may sound unconventional but they are based on direct interaction and experiences with the saints who are waiting for the opportunity to use their powers once authorized by God and His last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)]
 
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Where are you getting your grade A information from fella??

As a military professional, you should know better and learn to respect your adversary.....better learn a thing or two about respect from seniors such as Mr.MuradK (Pray to god for his health)

So much for the "Gentlemen" in the armed forces of your nation.....I pray that the rest of your armed forces are not as arrogant after failing to achieve their objective of "taking Kashmir" for the last 60 years from the "quivering" Indian armed forces and failing to prevent your nation from being split into two ......but hey who's boasting right??

Anyways, we dont need to sacrifice cows over cliffs to win Kashmir, we already have it....now better pull a rabbit out of your arse to change this scenario.....
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What an arrogant dude.

dude what i said above is true, can u not see the truth in it, if u cannot than u r arse is in the in the upper part/place and front place of your torso. Dude.

U talk about kashmir, it is shameful that India continues to kill innocent and have done so for 60 years, no country in this world has ever done this and will ever do this oppression and killing, u have the kashmir by force dude. 500.000 soldiers to control a population of 3 million, even tyrants like Stalin did not do this.

And u do not have the whole kashmir dude, we have the better half, learn dude.

Muslims fought Romans and the numbers were 30,000 Muslims Army soldiers and 250,000 Romans soldiers, yet there was a draw. With such a disparity Muslims did teach roman that it is not quantity but quality in soldiers beliefs in the almighty. An honorable death (shaheed,a Muslim word misused by Indians) is but a way to heavens.dude.

Read the facts dude.

Byzantine?Arab Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so we the Pakistani have honor on our side and moral high ground, we did not commit atrocities anywhere, now y will say what about east Pakistan. It has been discussed umpteen time in the post related to that topic, go read and learn something about truth and honor. dude.

:pakistan:
 
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Don't be so arrogant. As a student of spirituality, let me assure you that a time is indeed approaching when rabbits will be pulled out of nowhere. This is not a forsaken planet. It operates under an elaborate heirarchy of saints under God. They intervene to the extent it is necessary to guide the evolution of this planet. While there may be terribly destructive wars approaching, the end result this time will not be determined by anyone's superior military muscle. Physical technology is nothing compared to the spiritual powers bestowed by God on saints that act as guardians of this world. Every weapon and missile on this planet is under the spiritual control of God's appointed servants. Destruction will only be permitted to an extent, beyond which there shall be a grand intervention by spiritual forces the like of which has not been seen before in mankind's history. All arrogant and oppressive forces will be defeated, whoever they are and whatever religion they claim. So, while you can relish your current illegitimate hold over Kashmir, know that a time for pulling out rabbits is indeed approaching ;)

[Note: my views may sound unconventional but they are based on direct interaction and experiences with the saints who are waiting for the opportunity to use their powers once authorized by God and His last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)]


Mystic,

I truly enjoyed your post. I like the way you think.....

However your post got biased as soon as you mentioned the bolded line....

What is legitimate, what is good, what is bad is all an element of who's perspective you look at it from.....

Whether we are right or wrong, we will only find out in the afterlife....

And I believe in Karma.....The duty of every Indian is to protect his motherland, and that includes Kashmir.....
According to Karma, we should keep doing our duty and not worry about the results.....

I believe Indians are doing it, and Pakistani's as well.....
So who's morally/spiritually better is a matter of opinion!
 
Asq.....

There is no moral high ground in war.....

And lets not talk about atrocities......The way you criticize our nation for atrocities, your nation is also equally responsible for the same when they help sponsor terrorists who kill innocent civilians, or supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan which itself has directly resulted in the destruction of a nation and its people......So your nations hands are soaked in the same blood!!!

We as Indians are doing our duty to protect our motherland......that includes Kashmir!!!

Also, I have respect for Pakistani's in general as I have close relationships with many from your nation.....But I will not take an insult about my nation, its people and armed forces from the same....

Lets leave it at that....
 
Mig 29 is one such aircraft for which there are few like F6 MLU.

In kargil It was Mig-29 which locked on F-16 as Mig-29 had R77 BVR missile and F-16 had none.
Source - Warplanes: <b>May 20, 2005</b>

But New F-16's have AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile which is a good BVR missile.

Good person the Article in question is another Bollywood story the guy who wrote it has no idea what he is talking about. If the Indians say that your EX-PAF officers wrote the same thing that was wrong too some retired PAF officers who took early retirement because they didn't get promoted were pissed and started to write articles against PAF.

Pakistan Air Force made sure that they stay out side the ring WHY? if PAF would have taken out a fighter it would cause a chain reaction which meant war on all fronts.

When PAF got slammed by Uncle Sam it didn't make much difference, PAF got the spear parts from a EU country who bought spares from Turkey and Israel and sold it to GOP the only drawback was a part which was for $500 GOP had to pay 5 times more. PAF was never compromised due to lack of spare parts. There flying hours were met according to what PAF wanted Appox 230 hr a month for every SQD.

IAF not even once locked on to our fighters IAF was out for blood because they lost fighters and helicopters. If they had F-16 or any other fighter they would have taken it out. When IAF fighters got shot down by Air defence they decided not to send in SU so they opted for Mirage2000 and they did high level bombing just to keep them selves out of harms way.
 
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Oh yes, I did forget that one! Oh my, all those MiG29s and all those radars along the border, which continually monitor Pak airspace, will be sitting ducks in the event of a PAF preemptive strike? I guess IAF does not teach its pilots to scramble fighters/interceptors when put on high alert!

I never said Indian MiG-29s are unable to stop a pre-emptive strike, I said the PAF strike fighters would be launching large numbers of precision-guided stand-off weapons from within their own airspace. Those MiGs would be forced to come into PAF territory to stop them. I reckon the PAF would try to lure them into kill zones for high altitude SAMs (along with BVR AAM-armed interceptors).
 

Pakistan Air Force made sure that they stay out side the ring WHY? if PAF would have taken out a fighter it would cause a chain reaction which meant war on all fronts.

Exactly!
IAF not even once locked on to our fighters IAF was out for blood because they lost fighters and helicopters. If they had F-16 or any other fighter they would have taken it out.
Wrong and correct. There was no 'locking' of AAMs, but both sides tracked each others fighters, whenever possible, so as to avoid any LoC violations. IAF had an advantage because we had BVR capability then, but I wouldnt count on it. You yourself gave a good reason as to why the two air forces never engaged. Strict ROEs were in force on both sides to avoid escalating the conflict.
When IAF fighters got shot down by Air defence they decided not to send in SU so they opted for Mirage2000 and they did high level bombing just to keep them selves out of harms way.
IAF had acquired the Su-30 (not the MKIs) only in '96 and were still getting their 'hands on experience' with these aircraft. You among all others, I assume you being a combat pilot, would know about it!

There is a very interesting link I would like you all to read, more especially a post which I would like to quote here:
LINK Go through the link, very interesting read indeed.
By a person named TOM (post is quite old - from 2000):
in such cases, there is always a need for a sober analysis. Sometimes, such things can result in wonders.

I'm also not sure if there are any F-7MGs in operational service with the PAF now, but if I'm not badly wrong, two units - the 17th and 23rd Sqn - of the Southern Command, should at least be acquiring F-7MGs in the moment or since some time.

In the Northern Command PAF the situation is slightly different, as there are at least three units equipped with F-7Ps. The 15th Sqn is based at Kamra, 19th and 23rd at Mianwali. I apologize in advance if my data is not correct any more, I sampled this list some two years ago; there is also a high probability that in such a case of emergency some unites were re-deployed to forward airfields further in the north, just like this was the case with several IAF units of the WAC, which were moved to Pathankot and Adempur.

Now to the operational part. I don't quite understand the heavy criticism expressed by some people here regarding the possibility that an F-7 takes some MiG-29 by surprise, or even outmaneuvers it. Leave the eventual capabilities of these aircraft and Indian or Pakistani pilots now by side and try to think sober.

Due to the fact, that the area where this incident should've happened is very rugged and mountaineous, neither side has a proper radar coverage over it. We should also not forget that neither the PAF nor the IAF have any AWACS assets, and the MiG-29B - even if substantially modified - is a far cry from that Su-27/30 (?) version equipped with rear-facing radar.

Now, add to this the fact, that regarding the radar coverage of airspace over Kargil both sides depend on relatively distant long-range ground based radars, even most modern versions of which are almost certainly able to give a relatively clear picture of what is going on only over the level of 20.000ft (7.430m) or so. As far as I know, there is so far no radar capable of "looking" through mountains, and even over much lover mountain areas of southern Serbia last year, NATO AWACS needed support from fighters like F-15Cs, F-16AMs, Sea Harriers F/A.2s and F-14As to cover their "blind-spots".

I'm not going to discuss here capabilities of Indian MiG-29's N-019M Rubin radars. Theory is always nice and clear, praxis something completely different. In praxis, there are may situations in which interceptor pilots will left their radars on "off" (or "standby"), and fly patterns their collegues in bombers fly. If for no other reason, then to conceal their identity or even in order to decoy the enemy and perhaps lure somebody into a well set trap.

IMHO one also has to consider, that - according to several different articles I read so far, Indian fighters operated from levels between 30.000ft (9.100m) and more during their bombing missions and were asked to stay away between two and five miles (four to eight kilometers) away from the LoC, due to the danger from Pakistani FIM-92 Stingers. Yet, nobody can tell me that - especially IAF's interceptors, pilots of which are particularly familiar with flying deep between Himalayan mountains - haven't operated lower as well (thus staying completely undetected by either Pakistani or Chinese radars), or that they never flew over the LoC. Also, nobody can tell me that Pakistanis are not practicing similar tactics.

Now, these days nobody is flying potential combat mission alone - without any support by a wingman - any more (except for Yugoslav MiG-29 pilots in last year, which suffered losses accordingly). Thus, I would rather say that - if this happened - there were two F-7Ps and two MiG-29s.


All that said, I'm very sure that there is a possibility - I repeat: possibility - for two F-7P to, guided by GCI, sneak-up on two MiG-29s which are loitering on a high level. They could easily close undetected, flying at low level, deep between mountains, climb at high speed and catch MiGs completely unaware. Of course, especially the last part of such an enterprise would be very risky business: MiG-pilots could detect them, assume that F-7s had agressive intentions, turn around and shot them down.

Yet - and this is something Balderdash will certainly confirm - while MiG-29 have pretty smoky engines, and could be visually acquired from distances of up to 10 miles without any problems on clear day, F-7s (alias MiG-21F-13) are extreemely hard to acquire visually, foremost due to their very low cross-section. I personally witnessed cases when - on a particularly clear day - it was hard to spot a light-grey painted MiG-21MF over a distance of more than four kilometers while standing on the ground. PAF's F-7s carry some kind of "ghost-grey" camo pattern, which is adapting itself to actual light conditions. With their smaller inlets, and from a cockpit of a fast moving (and vibrating) fighter, they are even harder to spot than MiG-21MF.

Try to develop this even further: PAF radar detects MiG-29s operating at high level and three pairs of F-7Ps are scrambled, two of which make a large curve around MiGs, while the third is waiting at low level. MiGs will certainly detect first or second Pakistani pair, but the GCI would have a relatively easy job of guiding one of remaining pairs low under the enemy. Would Indian pilots remain aware of other potentional dangers under such circumstances?

One can never know, of course, there is also a possibility that MiGs detect all the threats and pull back early, or shot some of them down. But I would never say that something similar is impossible simply because "MiG-29's BVR missiles". Especially not for that reason. The only experiences of the use of R-27s so far (during the war between Ethiopia and India) were VERY negative (even if those were used by experienced Russian pilots).

I also wouldn't comment at all the - eventual - "dogfight" phase of this incident (if it ever happened): one can never be sure if something similar (means, F-7 sitting at MiG-29's "six") is possible or not. Both planes are prized for their high maneuvreability, but it always depends too much the moment, the moment of surprise, on pilots and circumstances...


So, that was my "five cents" on this matter (if I'm honest, however, I expect that some responses will come like if I talked about several billions... ;-)).

Regards
Tom

PS There is one "2nd tought" about this, however: why shouldn't Pakistani F-7-pilots, after achieving such an advantageous position behind some Indian MiG-29, fire? Pakistani soldiers fired, downing one MiG-21, one MiG-27 and one Mi-8 by Stingers. Why shouldn't PAF-pilots do the same? Except if this never happened...?
 
This is more for local consumption and if they have any ill designs then this base lies 100 km East of Pakistan's border. I am sure few missiles would do the job.

"Adampur Airbase is located in western India, 21 kilometers Northeast of the city of Jullundur, and is approximately 100 kilometers East of the Pakistan border. Adampur is one of 14 Indian Airbases under the Western Air Command within 300 kilometers of the Pakistan border. Adampur Airbase is home to at least 70 combat aircraft including two squadrons of MiG- 29s, two squadrons of MiG-23s and a squadron of MiG- 21s. There are revetted aircraft dispersal areas on the north side of the airfield.

Adampur is served by a single 9,000 foot long runway."


One runway makes it easier :)
 
Well said.

I didn't really have any source as it was a reply to an opinion and not a fact.

But yes nukes mean MAD and that is to be considered seeing that hypothetically if India were to conduct surgical strikes and Pakistan replies with nukes (that's what the original post implied to which i replied), would it be in Pakistans interests to lose so much in reply to a surgical strike. I'm sure there would be other options on the table as well. For every action the only threat cannot be a nuclear one.

Actually i did'nt mean to Discourage you by my post my friend.

There are Other options:
If India does a Surgical strike( That is the last thing IAF wants to do in sure)

1: Your planes will come but they will be Shot down!!
2: PAF will Do a Quick , Counter Surgical strike too may be in Cilicon Vally or something or on Mumbai.
2: A long as India and Pakistan cannot afford a full scale war i think this would end as a action and the reacion to it!
3: Pakistan:pakistan:'s Ability to Defend itslef Conventionally is being Misunderstood , we have over hundreds Kills on our Airforce Record.
4: Mig 29 is an easy target for the F-16's with BVRs and if you put them in Dogfight , F16's Favourite chocklate with Coke:bunny:
By the way PAF has done excercises on an MIG29 provided by a Friendly Country.
5:Su30 is detectable from 150kms away Correct me if i am wrong , so its going to be welcomed with SAM's
7:The only loss Pakistan will have is that we would have to use some of our Secret Weapons , and they would be disclosed!
8: India will sustain losses in heavy as we would love to Target their Industry
9: Loss + Loss = INDO PAK , losers once again ...... US, U.K , ISRAEL , RUSSIA would be happy:cheers: on us and would say GOOD JOB !!
I hope you got my point.
 
Actually i did'nt mean to Discourage you by my post my friend.

There are Other options:
If India does a Surgical strike( That is the last thing IAF wants to do in sure)

1: Your planes will come but they will be Shot down!!
2: PAF will Do a Quick , Counter Surgical strike too may be in Cilicon Vally or something or on Mumbai.
2: A long as India and Pakistan cannot afford a full scale war i think this would end as a action and the reacion to it!
3: Pakistan:pakistan:'s Ability to Defend itslef Conventionally is being Misunderstood , we have over hundreds Kills on our Airforce Record.
4: Mig 29 is an easy target for the F-16's with BVRs and if you put them in Dogfight , F16's Favourite chocklate with Coke:bunny:
By the way PAF has done excercises on an MIG29 provided by a Friendly Country.
5:Su30 is detectable from 150kms away Correct me if i am wrong , so its going to be welcomed with SAM's
7:The only loss Pakistan will have is that we would have to use some of our Secret Weapons , and they would be disclosed!
8: India will sustain losses in heavy as we would love to Target their Industry
9: Loss + Loss = INDO PAK , losers once again ...... US, U.K , ISRAEL , RUSSIA would be happy:cheers: on us and would say GOOD JOB !!
I hope you got my point.

You're right that the whole world would probably laugh at both countries in the event of an all out war.

Any air attacks would lead to losses due to SAM's and interceptors, whether it is the IAF over *** or PAF over the more heavily defended Mumbai (S-300, Spyder). PAF does have an ability to defend its airspace and has many kills to its record but so does the IAF historically. However as mentioned in my post in another thread, the gap between the two air-forces have widened both in quantity and quality whether in the current scenario or in 2015.

If you add up the numbers, at the moment its 34 F-16's (not MLU'd), 100 Mirage 3/5, 60 Mirage 3/5 ROSE, 100 F-7's (old), 40 F-7 PG's VS 120 SU30 MKI, 60 MIG29, 50 Mirage 2000, 125 Mig 21 Bison, 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars, with most aircraft either going for upgrades or already have been upgraded.

Also the Navy. I dont believe 6 PN submarines (although a potent force) and 10 odd surface vessels would stand upto IN's 12 subs and 35 surface combatants.

I'm not trying to boast about the Indian Armed Forces strength. I am trying to say that Pakistan needs to go in for a substantial acquisition programs of both foreign and chinese origin to close the conventional gap so that it does have some options on the table, and considering the nuclear option is further up the ladder.

Feel free to disagree and also if my numbers are off the mark. Cheers:cheers:
 
neither have we dictated any policy to the Pakistanis nor have to the Chinese in the recent past.We are not an island nation in the far-east.we have a long border with Pakistan and a shared history of three wars and many many skirmishes.We have the migs for taking to the skies against an aggression...when they get old...hopefully we'd put them in a nice museum...but till then they have to be kept ready to be used.if it was upto us...we'd have preferred to spend more on hastening the tectonic movement of our country as far away from this god-forsaken hot-spot of the world as possible...but that can't happen...hence the deployment.


I assume that your notion of hostility between India and China stem from this forum?
I would tell you two different versions of the same story....
a)India and China wouldn't go to war for their own gains...and the negotiation process that is actually working out.
b)If it comes to it...we can very well contain China on our own.Ours is a big nation of a billion people.We hate the prospect of going to war with Pakistan as much as we hate fighting with China.



a misplaced advice...you in your mind are seeing things that don't exist.

well we have to see the concrete steps made by indian gov and you people instead of blah blah..from your attitude i still see your confrontation subconsciousness , which is the obstacle for mutual coop.:blah::blah: dont let this becomes an unreachable dream, work hard!!
 
Mystic,

I truly enjoyed your post. I like the way you think.....

However your post got biased as soon as you mentioned the bolded line....

What is legitimate, what is good, what is bad is all an element of who's perspective you look at it from.....

Whether we are right or wrong, we will only find out in the afterlife....

And I believe in Karma.....The duty of every Indian is to protect his motherland, and that includes Kashmir.....
According to Karma, we should keep doing our duty and not worry about the results.....

I believe Indians are doing it, and Pakistani's as well.....
So who's morally/spiritually better is a matter of opinion!

The part that you highlighted was only included as a response to the arrogance in your earlier post. I respect every side's viewpoint, including yours. However, what I stated is nonetheless the truth - however bitter it may seem to you. India is in violation of UN resolution by continuing to occupy Kashmir without holding a plebiscite. You guys knew that the Kashmiris, being muslims, would have voted to join Pakistan so you never held a plebiscite mandated by UN. That qualifies as illegal in my dictionary.

If Kashmir was majority Hindu and Pakistan was occupying large part of it, not holding a plebiscite mandated by UN, then I would have called it illegitimate as well.

I am only on the side of justice whether it be against my interest or yours.

Peace be with you.
 
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The part that you highlighted was only included as a response to the arrogance in your earlier post. I respect every side's viewpoint, including yours. However, what I stated is nonetheless the truth - however bitter it may seem to you. India is in violation of UN resolution by continuing to occupy Kashmir without holding a plebiscite. You guys knew that the Kashmiris, being muslims, would have voted to join Pakistan so you never held a plebescite mandated by UN. That qualifies as illegal in my dictionary.

If Kashmir was majority Hindu and Pakistan was occupying large part of it, not holding a plebiscite mandated by UN, then I would have called it illegitimate as well.

I am only on the side of justice whether it be against my interest or yours.

Peace be with you.

Mystic....Not the appropriate thread for this discussion....

The Kashmir issue is not a business deal where we committed to anything....

This was a matter of India's "pacifist" leader Nehru trying to make a peaceful gesture to commemorate independence with goodwill rather than violence and war......leaving us with a legacy of hassles and troubles.....
The time was different, and the people were different......
But at no point were we bound to anything nor are we now!!

Kashmir was legally handed over to India, through no coersion....But Pakistan tried to annex and conquer Kashmir through bloodshed in '47...I call that illegal!!

The UN resolution was passed as a means to end the war......NOT as a trump for Pakistan to shove in our face!!!...
A deal between India and Pakistan without taking the opinion of the Kashmiri's who are the people who matter......thus leaving out the option of Independence.....So as is, It not a matter of what the Kashmiri's want, but more of which of which master will the Kashmiri serve....a secular India or a Muslim Pakistan......

The UN cannot make us conduct a plebiscite....goes to show you how much the "violation" matters to the UN......

Anyways.....as the wheels of the bus go round and round....so can we!!!
 
Kashmir was legally handed over to India, through no coersion....But Pakistan tried to annex and conquer Kashmir through bloodshed in '47...I call that illegal!!

Illegality is determined by international law, not personal whims.

I was expecting you would raise this hypocritical point that the ruler of Kashmir acceeded to India. Well brother, the ruler of Junagadh acceeded to Pakistan - why did India go occupy that state? If India can occupy Junagadh because of its hindu majority, then Pakistan also has a right to safeguard muslim majority Kashmir. Clearly, the Indian stance stands exposed and is based on hypocrisy and self-serving bias. You can't claim princely accession as paramount in one case (kashmir), and ethnic majority as paramount in another (junagadh). You can't have your cake and eat it too. But since you have, beware that injustices can cause indigestion and you will eventually have to vomit out what you ate.

A deal between India and Pakistan without taking the opinion of the Kashmiri's who are the people who matter......thus leaving out the option of Independence.....So as is, It not a matter of what the Kashmiri's want, but more of which of which master will the Kashmiri serve....a secular India or a Muslim Pakistan......

The time when the UN resolution was passed, the Kashmiris did not have any tendencies for seeking independence. They would have voted for Pakistan. This tendency for seeking independence has developed more recently as the Kashmiris saw Pakistan declining as a state and aiding jihadis whose struggle has not borne fruit but brought more misery in the form of increased Indian military brutality. Anyway, if India is up for holding a plebiscite then I support putting in an "independence" clause now. But would India ever risk parting with Kashmir, never! Pakistan is more ambivalent on the independence option.

Anyway, the issue of Kashmir will be settled in the years to come through a "rabbit out of the hat" sort of intervention that I have hinted at earlier. That time is very near. The spiritual preparations have already begun. Glad tidings for all the oppressed people of the world, and a warning to the oppressors.
 
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