LY-80 deliveries to Pakistan complete

[SQ8]

Sir can I ask one personal question?

Did you rejected by armed forces many times?
I saw same behavior from those who fail to clear ISSB despite many attempts.

No. Never applied nor cared for it. In fact I remember being told specifically by one of the cream who went down with AVM Mushaf when I was thinking of it to that I should focus on an education abroad since Im not a follow orders type of person( thank god for his guidance that I am where I am in my career today) even though it is my family that the first bomb landed on India in 65.

So despite the pithy point you are trying to pass off Col sb ad someone spurned by the Armed forces to have spite; I know this from the mouths of both serving officers, those who deal(do business) with them and also from people in NDC.

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation.. the sooner we accept it the sooner we can address it rather than laying blame on just one section of society.

 

[IceCold]

Army's job is to protect the whole country ...not the bloody cantonments only.

I thinking protecting the airspace is PAF domain and that should include protection of cities from IAF.
However that still does not substitute for a good old Sam system considering PAF will be pretty tight defending the airspace and delivering offensive.

 

[IceCold]

Still defensive role as you have also pointed out not, "active defence" you said but not offensive weapons.

Yes they may be deployed closer to border to serve as first line of defense but that is not practical really and you don't see many countries doing that, there must be a good reason! If we have some local system and we produce them in number we may be able to allocate some mobile systems to forward bases and border areas but cannot risk HIGH VALUE expensive limited number of imported SAMs by putting them near border and within enemy hit range. A land launched rocket may hit them, a few hundred thousand shell destroying a multi-million dollar system, not very wise. For that to be remotely sensible you need a cheap multi-layered home grown solution. LRSAM protected by medium range protected by point defence and QR systems. A very complex setup.

So ideally the surface to air missiles will continue to be deployed in defensive roles to protect key strategic assets.

This is where manpads come in. During Kargil war Indian migs were shot down using Anza. You are right no need for multi billion dollar system to be this close to border. If IAF manages to break first line of defense and come in, there is where systems like these come into play. However having a system like HQ9 can keep Indians beyond our borders owning to its long range just like s400.

 

[Flight of falcon]

No. Never applied nor cared for it. In fact I remember being told specifically by one of the cream who went down with AVM Mushaf when I was thinking of it to that I should focus on an education abroad since Im not a follow orders type of person( thank god for his guidance that I am where I am in my career today) even though it is my family that the first bomb landed on India in 65.

So despite the pithy point you are trying to pass off Col sb ad someone spurned by the Armed forces to have spite; I know this from the mouths of both serving officers, those who deal(do business) with them and also from people in NDC.

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation.. the sooner we accept it the sooner we can address it rather than laying blame on just one section of society.

Please don’t include me and tons of others in my people and nation who are not corrupt. You don’t speak for us. On the other hand we also have no shortage of idiots in our country and abroad just like corrupt people their entire mission in life is to preach gloom and doom.

 

[crankthatskunk]

No. Never applied nor cared for it. In fact I remember being told specifically by one of the cream who went down with AVM Mushaf when I was thinking of it to that I should focus on an education abroad since Im not a follow orders type of person( thank god for his guidance that I am where I am in my career today) even though it is my family that the first bomb landed on India in 65.

So despite the pithy point you are trying to pass off Col sb ad someone spurned by the Armed forces to have spite; I know this from the mouths of both serving officers, those who deal(do business) with them and also from people in NDC.

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation.. the sooner we accept it the sooner we can address it rather than laying blame on just one section of society.

Me being one of those who readily accept the wide spread corruption in Pakistan and address such people appropriately, even on their faces. I mean not just a internet warrior.
And having such connections in Pakistan to reach any armed forces personal with in minutes if needs be.
I still say that there are lots of people in Pakistan who are very good in all walks of life. Pakistan is running because of such people.
If you look at honestly most of the common folks are good, they just suffer quietly, accepting it as their fate.
I wish they stand up and take care of the few thousands corrupts sitting in different departments, forces, institutions etc. These corrupts are the one who are dragging the country down.
Therefore, focus on the real facts rather than condemning the whole country. Believe you me, you would not be half as harsh critic of people like I am, with the courage to speak on people's faces, no matter how high up they think they are in the scheme of things.
That's why I criticise Pakistani journalists more than anyone else. These people are either corrupt, especially the top of the pile ones. They don't ask proper questions from our politicians. Because of this reason Zardaris and Butts have got away with such wholesale loot of Pakistan.
Have you ever seen Nawaz given an honest and open interview to a journalist in his life!!!
How these journalists can call themselves journalists with such abysmal record!!
We should focus on such people not belittling the whole nation.

 

[SQ8]

Me being one of those who readily accept the wide spread corruption in Pakistan and address such people appropriately, even on their faces. I mean not just a internet warrior.
And having such connections in Pakistan to reach any armed forces personal with in minutes if needs be.
I still say that there are lots of people in Pakistan who are very good in all walks of life. Pakistan is running because of such people.
If you look at honestly most of the common folks are good, they just suffer quietly, accepting it as their fate.
I wish they stand up and take care of the few thousands corrupts sitting in different departments, forces, institutions etc. These corrupts are the one who are dragging the country down.
Therefore, focus on the real facts rather than condemning the whole country. Believe you me, you would not be half as harsh critic of people like I am, with the courage to speak on people's faces, no matter how high up they think they are in the scheme of things.
That's why I criticise Pakistani journalists more than anyone else. These people are either corrupt, especially the top of the pile ones. They don't ask proper questions from our politicians. Because of this reason Zardaris and Butts have got away with such wholesale loot of Pakistan.
Have you ever seen Nawaz given an honest and open interview to a journalist in his life!!!
How these journalists can call themselves journalists with such abysmal record!!
We should focus on such people not belittling the whole nation.

Journalists can manipulate opinions and hence are a powerful tool - they know that and capitalize on it.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Journalists can manipulate opinions and hence are a powerful tool - they know that and capitalize on it.

That's why I am against them. Before 2013 elections I was very active, wrote many articles at a UK site which is now discontinued. Few articles published in the News and other mainstream media. Some articles on spectator.
I interacted with some famous names in Pakistani journalism at the time. Believe you me, I find all of them without exceptions very bad people. That's why I am not fooled by any of them at all. I can see through them.
Another good thing is that most of them had me blocked on Twitter for years for speaking some home truths.

 

[SQ8]

That's why I am against them. Before 2013 elections I was very active, wrote many articles at a UK site which is now discontinued. Few articles published in the News and other mainstream media. Some articles on spectator.
I interacted with some famous names in Pakistani journalism at the time. Believe you me, I find all of them without exceptions very bad people. That's why I am not fooled by any of them at all. I can see through them.
Another good thing is that most of them had me blocked on Twitter for years for speaking some home truths.

So have I in person. They are businessmen for the most part especially when they(top ones) make around 2-500k per episode.

A lot of these people have been convinced by the powers that be of the endgame for Pakistan and hence they are focused on their own self interest.

 

[war&peace]

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation..

...In my experience 30-35% are corrupt

I thinking protecting the airspace is PAF domain and that should include protection of cities from IAF.
However that still does not substitute for a good old Sam system considering PAF will be pretty tight defending the airspace and delivering offensive.

Whether PAF or PA, we need LR-SAM. They should stop throwing balls into others court and think about the bigger picture. They are responsible for defending the nation.

 

[maxpayne]

15 Meter to 15000 meters or ~50 feet to ~50, 000 feet is impressive coverage

Plus missile has thrust vectoring capability and all digital vs analog

Lastly aesa radar

Per paf when army and airforce looked at ly-60 for joint army /paf it was rejected and paf selected spada 2k

Navy selected it for type 21 ???

At the time there was no Ly-80

types are under retirement phase

 

[Maarkhoor]

No. Never applied nor cared for it. In fact I remember being told specifically by one of the cream who went down with AVM Mushaf when I was thinking of it to that I should focus on an education abroad since Im not a follow orders type of person( thank god for his guidance that I am where I am in my career today) even though it is my family that the first bomb landed on India in 65.

So despite the pithy point you are trying to pass off Col sb ad someone spurned by the Armed forces to have spite; I know this from the mouths of both serving officers, those who deal(do business) with them and also from people in NDC.

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation.. the sooner we accept it the sooner we can address it rather than laying blame on just one section of society.

Look Sir,
We should not make our mind just our assumptions made by some professional jealousy by serving or retired persons.
There are very strict check and balances no one is above the law and as per my best knowledge every armed force have its own accountability branch which looks into these type of things.
Again armed forces don't publish these type of punishment on national channels hence civilians don't now how many got punished and sentenced even over a small issues and that is why armed forces of Pakistan is the only well functioning and well respected institute.

We are not angles but a people from peoples just like any other Pakistan hence have same shortcomings but we follow rules and implement it not for eye wash (NAB) but in real meaning.
Regards,

 

[Cool_Soldier]

LY-80 job is done now move towards FD 2000 procurement.

 

[Arsalan]

Your interpretation of 'offensive' is limited. If I am able to understand correctly, you use 'offensive' to mean actively shoot down aircraft/airborne systems. But offence is a general concept. If you force the enemy into a narrow corridor and shoot them down using your aircrafts, you have just used SAMs in a purely offensive role, without actually shooting any aircraft with them.

Sir can you please elaborate on how the SAMs deployed as "offensive weapons" will push enemy aircraft into a narrow corridor?

In a war where supersonic cruise missiles such as Brahmos may be utilized, you want to go on the offence but Brahmos threatens your forward defences. You need a multi-layered solution to try and take it our at various ranges. Are you going to wait till the missile comes within 30 km to shoot it down? Your whole conceptualization is stuck in the 20th century concept of warfare.

What you have said (point highlighted above in red) have to do with the shooting range of the system and NOTHING with defensive/offensive use. If by offensive deployment you mean longer range that can shoot the enemy targets at distance then please note that this is not nature or posture of the weapon or its deployment but merely its capability. The SAMs still is being used as a defense against enemy missiles/aircraft and only its range is increased so it can engage them at greater range. I dont know what century warfare it is but that is what we see all around the world with no LRSAM being used as offensive battle weapons.

This is where manpads come in. During Kargil war Indian migs were shot down using Anza. You are right no need for multi billion dollar system to be this close to border. If IAF manages to break first line of defense and come in, there is where systems like these come into play. However having a system like HQ9 can keep Indians beyond our borders owning to its long range just like s400.

EXACTLY! It have always been short range quick response SAMs that will be used as offensive weapons in battle field to actively engage and shoot enemy assets. The LONG RANGE systems will be deployed as part of layered defense system.

UPDATED:
Corrected after pointed out by @Signalian

I think it's okay when people like us are criticizing the armed forces because we have what's best for Pakistan in mind. It's not okay when people in PTM do the same, because they have some ulterior motive and essentially desire the break-up of Pakistan. I, too, have relatives and others in armed forces and I have heard of (1) corruption, (2) rot, and worst-case scenario, the (3) sell-out of Pakistan's core interests to the West.

Before OBL-Raid, I was a staunch defender of the military and military-governments like Musharraf, etc. Much of No # 3 that I listed above, started during Musharraf's era. It climaxed when the OBL-Raid happened in Abbottabad. That confirmed everything for me and opened my eyes to what these people running the military were doing. There was a mole-network selling Pakistan out to the West.

For those defending military higher-ups, please ask yourselves, how much longer are you going to keep defending them? Wasn't 1971 War, Fall of East Pakistan, Siachen, Kargil War, WoT with 70,000 dead, violent groups running a muck in Pakistan, enough to open your eyes? People talk about East Pakistan lightly. Which I have to repeatedly remind was majority of your population and half your wing. How often does a country lost half its territory in a war? Please read up the biographies on the Indian army soldiers who have written about the 1971 war, the stories about failures & mistakes made by Pakistan army high-command are plentiful. Look up Operation Trident & Python and how it brought massive loss to Pakistan in 1971 war.

Why does every other country like US, Indian or even Iran & Afghanistan threaten to attack Pakistan, a nuclear power? Whereas, other countries like US think twice before attacking Iran, a much weaker country? Why is it that Pakistan is engulfed in separatist movements, rebellions, chaos when Iran, despite having no shortage of hostile foreign intelligence-agencies is a lot more peaceful & stable? Please ask yourselves these questions.

Armies are hired and paid to fight & win wars, not lose and be runner-up. There are no runner-ups in love & war. Top brass has consistently made costly mistakes, blunders, errors and the troops fighting on the front lines have had to pay the price with their lives. Some of the only reasons why Pakistan has survived until now is because it is lucky to have a foe as pathetic as the Indian military.

People mock the India here for its humiliation in February. The thing I liked about them is that Modi at least had the balls to sack the IAF Western Command officers. What happens if top brass in Pakistan lose wars and territory? They get full military honors, lol.

My point is that top brass should be applauded if they do well and they should be criticized if they do poorly. No one should tolerate mediocrity under the guise of patriotism. I think armed forces need massive reform & restructuring to be able to fight wars in the modern era. More importantly, I think armed forces need to change their war-fighting doctrine & strategy for India.

Not here please. Trying to move the discussion back to SAM and LY80. I hope you will understand.

 

[TsAr]

No. Never applied nor cared for it. In fact I remember being told specifically by one of the cream who went down with AVM Mushaf when I was thinking of it to that I should focus on an education abroad since Im not a follow orders type of person( thank god for his guidance that I am where I am in my career today) even though it is my family that the first bomb landed on India in 65.

So despite the pithy point you are trying to pass off Col sb ad someone spurned by the Armed forces to have spite; I know this from the mouths of both serving officers, those who deal(do business) with them and also from people in NDC.

We are a corrupt people, as a whole nation.. the sooner we accept it the sooner we can address it rather than laying blame on just one section of society.

Could not agree more. Armed forces are hired from within us and we as a nation have accepted corruption as part of us and have condoned it. Only way forward for us is to mend our ways.

 

[SQ8]

Could not agree more. Armed forces are hired from within us and we as a nation have accepted corruption as part of us and have condoned it. Only way forward for us is to mend our ways.

Unfortunately each of our sections in society (military, civilian, elite, poor) tries to excuse their own corrupt practices by laying the blame on the other or deflecting to the other.

A lower middle class motorcycle rider slamming into a car by driving like a maniac has no right to give the excuse of “mein ghareeb hun” just as much as someone in a BMW running a person over and claiming superior connections.