LY-80 deliveries to Pakistan complete

[SQ8]

I'm trying to build a balanced IADS which has LRSAMs and fighters. As opposed to a fighter heavy PAF that has neglected LRSAMs. Maybe @Oscar can give us an insight on why PAF purchased the Spada-2000, a weapon that I felt was already outdated when purchased.

This is what happens when there are too many fighter jockeys in top management.

Our experience in Afghanistan suggests magical returns when SAMs are used with an offensive doctrine.

The Spada purchase was disputed by many in the PAF for different reasons; most importantly because it is a Semi-Active system when the newer peers are all active at terminal.
But these are all stories for who had accounts in the UAE or whose kids are now driving BMWs.

The PAF is the most corrupt(per head count and gain) of all the three services according to many people who work in selling equipment to our military.

However, the PAF is not responsible for providing SAM cover to the PA. That is the task of army air defense which after years of utter neglect both from high command(due to their lack of modern combat concepts perhaps or funds) and its own commanders is waking up to the realization that they will be mauled by the liked of CBU-105 and other systems before their pretty RB-70s or Anza’s even got a peek off.

 

[Ghost 125]

But its range is only 8 km maximum

apachi can fire hellfire to max 8 kms, ,,so 8 km is fine

 

[Army research]

apachi can fire hellfire to max 8 kms, ,,so 8 km is fine

Also max range is almost never the effective range

 

[iLION12345_1]

Alright they don;t know the issue.
But you supposedly do.
How about you add some logic behind your statement instead of just dropping in with a "you don;t know", I know, generals know but you don't know.

I partially agree with you --- however, "the generals" have made huge strategic errors and continue to do so, so experience and a basic level of rationality doesn't seem to be enough to cut it. We need next-level visionaries and geniuses in the top ranks who have the audacity and creativity to implement new forms of warfare and define new strategic realities (rather than being a reactive bunch.)

Alright they don;t know the issue.
But you supposedly do.
How about you add some logic behind your statement instead of just dropping in with a "you don;t know", I know, generals know but you don't know.

Would respond but signalian did it for me. Humans are humans and they make mistakes even with decades of experience. The greatest leaders in the world made mistakes and some of them paid the price with outright failure. It’s good to hold your military accountable. It is not to think that you know better. They will make mistakes. But they will still know better than people without experience.
That being said, nobody is calling you dumb or saying you can’t share your opinion, I don’t control that. My only issue is with people thinking they know better. Even if you are smarter than them. You do not know one bit of the circumstances of these deals and our defense. I don’t either. But at least I can admit it. Sorry if I came across a bit harsh, but it’s the truth. If I sound one sided. So do you. Balance is better

 

[Armchair]

Who will buy then LR-SAM (PAF or PA) ? Straight answer please
How is it handled in other countries? I feel there is confusion in our case or do we need a separate arm.

A research study was done in the PA that was not implemented, that possibly suggested a new arm, that would focus on ground based air defence, and would be separate but subordinate to the PAF. Something like the USN and USMC.

PS: This study didn't make it past the muster due to politics.

 

[Sine Nomine]

what are you on and about ? which strategic error ?

A Book having many volumes would only cover these strategic blunders.

 

[Gryphon]

I don't really see much of a SAM combo, the Spada-2000s are next to useless. Ly-80s are part of defending the army's formations / headquarters / high value points / etc.

For reasons well known, MBDA Italia's Spada was preferred over Saab's superior offering after PAF tested several short-to-medium range SAM systems.

Semi-active like LY-80, but somewhat fulfills PAF's requirement of airfield defence along with Crotales.

 

[R Wing]

Would respond but signalian did it for me. Humans are humans and they make mistakes even with decades of experience. The greatest leaders in the world made mistakes and some of them paid the price with outright failure. It’s good to hold your military accountable. It is not to think that you know better. They will make mistakes. But they will still know better than people without experience.
That being said, nobody is calling you dumb or saying you can’t share your opinion, I don’t control that. My only issue is with people thinking they know better. Even if you are smarter than them. You do not know one bit of the circumstances of these deals and our defense. I don’t either. But at least I can admit it. Sorry if I came across a bit harsh, but it’s the truth. If I sound one sided. So do you. Balance is better

Now, that's a better response!

can't find SAM related part.
post this stuff in a related post/thread, not here.

I was pointing out a pattern that suggested that those in the uniformed services don't necessarily make the best strategic decisions --- in terms of air defense, I think we don't have many options other than the HQ-9, which we apparently are getting, so all seems well there.

I was not a fan of piling on more and more F-16s when things with the US were clearly going downhill.

 

[tarrar]

Pakistan should strengthen its air defence in any way possible. I hope PA's next purchase is a long range air defence system.

 

[GriffinsRule]

For reasons well known, MBDA Italia's Spada was preferred over Saab's superior offering after PAF tested several short-to-medium range SAM systems.

Semi-active like LY-80, but somewhat fulfills PAF's requirement of airfield defence along with Crotales.

Can you expand on these reasons? I have never heard about Saabs offerings or why Spada was greenlighted vs other systems.

 

[Signalian]

I was pointing out a pattern that suggested that those in the uniformed services don't necessarily make the best strategic decisions --- in terms of air defense, I think we don't have many options other than the HQ-9, which we apparently are getting, so all seems well there.

I was not a fan of piling on more and more F-16s when things with the US were clearly going downhill.

Actually Top Brass do make the best strategic decisions since they understand the threat perspective better than us. We usually have limited information about many aspects of warfare, where as they don't. There has been a trend on this forum to "doubt" and "complain" against the Decision making authorities of Pakistan and it's Military. Unless we have a member who has served in MO Dte, T&E Dte and Arms Dte, any of these Dte's, states on PDF that deficiency or shortage has occurred in terms of a weapon system, i would take your post and other poster's posts doubting capabilities of Top brass, as mere propaganda against Pakistan. This is not the first time that im seeing such kinds of posts against Pakistan Military, in the age of internet and forum, most of the news comes from media and then contacts. Since leverage is given here on freedom of speech, so everyone can raise a hand and say that Military Generals are this and that, doesn't work the same way in real life.

Why does PAF want more F-16's and why isn't HQ-9 inducted, there are many old threads and posts which answer those queries, try reading posts of ThinkTank members on such topics, maybe you can get an idea, however stop being a victim of hybrid war against Top leadership and doubting their decision making skills.

 

[Arsalan]

Imagine you have an indigenous LRSAM that is 50 km away from the border... in constantly shifting positions. Imagine it can take potshots of slow, high value targets like refuelers, AWACS, EW aircraft at 200 km range. And IAF fighters at 100. You suddenly have an offensive system. Imagine these LRSAMs are layered with further sams, including more LRSAMs behind them.

India now has the problem of trying to figure out when and where what LRSAMs are deployed and failing which, they just don't know when an active or a passive missile is going to come up their tailpipes to give them a good morning...

Mate the amount of money this will need can be used to equip PAF with fighter jet squadrons, thing that is actually meant and designed to be an offensive weapon. Having SAM 50km from border is far too much of a risk. At some key positions, yes, all along the border as an offensive weapon, not feasible and not not practiced!

 

[CriticalThought]

Actually Top Brass do make the best strategic decisions since they understand the threat perspective better than us. We usually have limited information about many aspects of warfare, where as they don't. There has been a trend on this forum to "doubt" and "complain" against the Decision making authorities of Pakistan and it's Military. Unless we have a member who has served in MO Dte, T&E Dte and Arms Dte, any of these Dte's, states on PDF that deficiency or shortage has occurred in terms of a weapon system, i would take your post and other poster's posts doubting capabilities of Top brass, as mere propaganda against Pakistan. This is not the first time that im seeing such kinds of posts against Pakistan Military, in the age of internet and forum, most of the news comes from media and then contacts. Since leverage is given here on freedom of speech, so everyone can raise a hand and say that Military Generals are this and that, doesn't work the same way in real life.

Why does PAF want more F-16's and why isn't HQ-9 inducted, there are many old threads and posts which answer those queries, try reading posts of ThinkTank members on such topics, maybe you can get an idea, however stop being a victim of hybrid war against Top leadership and doubting their decision making skills.

Setting procurement aside, Mr Pervaiz Musharraf, the current Absconder in Chief, Chief of Absconding Staff, has demolished any trust we place on military generals. We can no longer tell whether a given general is in American pocket or not. Hence, when we see Pakistan's vested interests being sabotaged and the country handed over to be run by foreigners, the trust deficit just grows further. Which is why you see so much criticism. The civil and military leadership needs to step up their game to create a strong Pakistan. Until then, you should not complain.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Also max range is almost never the effective range

Apaches or for that matter any gunship can be neutralized if proper tactics are used.

Nearly all of the attack force sustained damage in one way or another during below attack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_attack_on_Karbala

 

[CriticalThought]

Mate the amount of money this will need can be used to equip PAF with fighter jet squadrons, thing that is actually meant and designed to be an offensive weapon. Having SAM 50km from border is far too much of a risk. At some key positions, yes, all along the border as an offensive weapon, not feasible and not not practiced!

@Armchair leave aside taking down jets. There is still threat from Brahmos and dumb, low cost projectiles offer a good solution to utilize saturation tactics against them. It also sets us on the path towards smart long range projectiles in the long term future. The disconcerting aspect is that no one is thinking along these lines.