Limitations of S-400 system

[randomradio]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
(Will add more to the thread later)

Considering the locations they will be positioned in during hostilities, the S-400 has more than adequate ABM capabilities when it comes to dealing with pretty much all ballistic missiles in Pakistan's arsenal.

 

[Safriz]

Considering the locations they will be positioned in during hostilities, the S-400 has more than adequate ABM capabilities when it comes to dealing with pretty much all ballistic missiles in Pakistan's arsenal.

Where? In Lahore?

 

[randomradio]

Where? In Lahore?

Close.

 

[Safriz]

Close.

To write this article i parked S-400 about 150 Km inside India.
Problem is if parked closer then ground forces can physically reach the asset and destroy, or artillery or rocket barrage will be enough.

 

[randomradio]

To write this article i parked S-400 about 150 Km inside India.
Problem is if parked closer then ground forces can physically reach the asset and destroy, or artillery or rocket barrage will be enough.

150Km is good enough. I've considered 120Km in the snippet below.

Here's my reply to one of Bilal's posts. You can read his post in the quote.

=====================

Saturation doctrine weapon can only be killed by saturation and asymmetric attack. The precision doctrine fails here as the SAM system is designed to tackle all likely scenarios used by the west and its Proxy states like Pakistan.

S400 has a solution: A networked Mesh with Drones that are able to DRFM the SR signal in real time and create targets like the MALD. S400 operator, if engages, loses important weapons. If does not engage, then has to deal with immense traffic on screen of actual flying aircraft and false targets that can allow a package to get through. However, i don't see S400 as the real threat to PAF aircraft but Spyder SAM system, which will have to force Pakistan to fly low and do pop up attacks with SOWs and REKs.
Coming back to S400, a set of 10-20 MALD type high speed drones with smart EW packages should do the job, create a lot of nice traffic and incoming ABMs rendering a S400 incapable to do anything else, or "engage" all the targets or the decoys (which would be flying like fighters or cruise missiles), letting go of precious rounds. As it engages, it is bright and loud and can be seen by a dead ESM receiver on any remote aircraft. If the battery chooses not to engage, it loses. If it choses to engage, it loses. As the battery re-loads, it is taken out. End of S400 chronicles.

I wouldn't be so sure about using the MALD.

The S-400 has 4 types of missiles. 40Km, 120Km, 250Km and 400Km.

The 250 and 400Km missiles are primarily meant to be used against high value assets. These missiles are few in number and are necessary for BMD as well. Which means, MALD will not be one of its targets. So, when it comes to air defence, the S-400 at those ranges is on the look out for larger aircraft instead. And the S-400 will also be supported by many other long range radars, namely the Swordfish, IAF-Arudhra, DRDO-Arudhra, HPR etc, even radar satellites.

MALD is more likely to be the target of the 120Km missiles. Let's not forget that the S-400 is also supported by capable EO sensors, which can easily distinguish between fighter jets and the MALD. Also, each launcher can carry 16 such medium range missiles, rather than just 4 long range missiles, so there's plenty of firepower available. A single S-400 radar site can have as many as 32-64 medium range missiles alongside 32-64 short range 40Km missiles. And also 2 batteries of the SPYDER. Those S-400 sites will be extremely well defended.

And this is just the IAF. People always forget that the IA will also have a large network of SAMs, MRSAM, Akash and QRSAM in particular, already in Pak territory after hostilities begin. So PAF jets will have to defeat the IA's SAMs first before coming anywhere close to the S-400 and IAF SPYDERs.

To put things in perspective, if we speak of just 1 regiment of MRSAM and QRSAM each in a sector, we are talking about more than 500 active missiles in play. Those 20 MALDs aiming for the S-400 are not going to have a good day.

Btw, at low altitude SOWs are not exactly SOWs. The powered AASM from France which claims a range of 60Km has only a 15Km range at low altitude. Even the 120+Km range AGM-154 manages only 22Km at low altitude. So if an S-400 site is located in Adampur, then the PAF will have to operate extremely deep inside India if it has to fly all the way over to within a 20Km range of Adampur. Even if PAF jets pop up and double the low altitude standoff range, you will still have to fly in deep. Adampur to the border is 100-120Km. Which means the S-400 is most likely only to see friendly units in the air and just a few enemy units within a 100Km radius. So this problem of dealing with immense enemy traffic does not arise.

MKI and Mig-29.
=====================

So that's against airstrikes on the S-400.

As for artillery strikes, the S-400 is a very small system. It will take an extraordinary amount of effort to actually find a battery since the S-400 won't allow you to look inside India. If you use artillery against it, you are likely not to hit anything, it's just a few dozen trucks after all. And then there is a good chance you are just attacking a truck mounted decoy instead. You can also expect the IAF to keep a keen eye out for enemy ground units which are operating close to the S-400 SAM sites.

 

[Safriz]

150Km is good enough. I've considered 120Km in the snippet below.

Here's my reply to one of Bilal's posts. You can read his post in the quote.

=====================


I wouldn't be so sure about using the MALD.

The S-400 has 4 types of missiles. 40Km, 120Km, 250Km and 400Km.

The 250 and 400Km missiles are primarily meant to be used against high value assets. These missiles are few in number and are necessary for BMD as well. Which means, MALD will not be one of its targets. So, when it comes to air defence, the S-400 at those ranges is on the look out for larger aircraft instead. And the S-400 will also be supported by many other long range radars, namely the Swordfish, IAF-Arudhra, DRDO-Arudhra, HPR etc, even radar satellites.

MALD is more likely to be the target of the 120Km missiles. Let's not forget that the S-400 is also supported by capable EO sensors, which can easily distinguish between fighter jets and the MALD. Also, each launcher can carry 16 such medium range missiles, rather than just 4 long range missiles, so there's plenty of firepower available. A single S-400 radar site can have as many as 32-64 medium range missiles alongside 32-64 short range 40Km missiles. And also 2 batteries of the SPYDER. Those S-400 sites will be extremely well defended.

And this is just the IAF. People always forget that the IA will also have a large network of SAMs, MRSAM, Akash and QRSAM in particular, already in Pak territory after hostilities begin. So PAF jets will have to defeat the IA's SAMs first before coming anywhere close to the S-400 and IAF SPYDERs.

To put things in perspective, if we speak of just 1 regiment of MRSAM and QRSAM each in a sector, we are talking about more than 500 active missiles in play. Those 20 MALDs aiming for the S-400 are not going to have a good day.

Btw, at low altitude SOWs are not exactly SOWs. The powered AASM from France which claims a range of 60Km has only a 15Km range at low altitude. Even the 120+Km range AGM-154 manages only 22Km at low altitude. So if an S-400 site is located in Adampur, then the PAF will have to operate extremely deep inside India if it has to fly all the way over to within a 20Km range of Adampur. Even if PAF jets pop up and double the low altitude standoff range, you will still have to fly in deep. Adampur to the border is 100-120Km. Which means the S-400 is most likely only to see friendly units in the air and just a few enemy units within a 100Km radius. So this problem of dealing with immense enemy traffic does not arise.

MKI and Mig-29.
=====================

So that's against airstrikes on the S-400.

As for artillery strikes, the S-400 is a very small system. It will take an extraordinary amount of effort to actually find a battery since the S-400 won't allow you to look inside India. If you use artillery against it, you are likely not to hit anything, it's just a few dozen trucks after all. And then there is a good chance you are just attacking a truck mounted decoy instead. You can also expect the IAF to keep a keen eye out for enemy ground units which are operating close to the S-400 SAM sites.

yes, supporting systems will change the equation and S-400 can be parked deep inside India as mainstay while axillary systems are deployed at forward positions..
But those auxiliary systems which you mention are not new and already known to Pakistan. What i wrote was to make things simple and analyze S-400 on it's own...and as a new threat to Pakistan.

 

[randomradio]

yes, supporting systems will change the equation and S-400 can be parked deep inside India as mainstay while axillary systems are deployed at forward positions..
But those auxillart systems which you mention are not new and already known to Pakistan. What i wrote was to make things simple and analyze S-400 on it's own...and as a new threat to Pakistan.

Yep, I got what you were trying to do.

The point is, the PAF's entire war effort will be used up in trying to counter the S-400, while the IAF is happily pounding away at Pak's forces. Even if the smaller systems are well known to Pakistan, they still have to be countered.

The S-400 is like the final level boss in a video game. The only difference is you are fighting this boss from the very first level onwards, and you can only defeat it in the last level. In the meantime, you will have to defeat a lot of other SAMs and fighter jets in order to get to the final boss, which will require an extraordinary effort from the get go.

Unlike most other SAMs out there, the latest Indian SAMs cannot just defeat aircraft, but are also capable of defeating SOWs, missiles and glide bombs. So just firing a few weapons at the SAMs will not be enough, you will need to bring in an extraordinary amount of firepower in order to saturate and then defeat the modern multi-layered SAMs.

In other words, you have to consider a largely spent air force will be trying to defeat the S-400.

 

[POPEYE-Sailor]

guys common accept this S-400 is check mate for Pakistan..!!

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
(Will add more to the thread later)

Problem solved. Now Pakistan can sit calm and happy.

 

[Vortex]

Could a stealth version of babur be used against any air defence system ?

 

[Big Tank]

Well there is nothing wrong to accept that S-400 is a big threat for us in case of war. So let's just focus on having an equivalent or better AD System instead of making useless topics to find flaws in S-400.

 

[NA71]

Better AD system? induction in two years ...the fear factor will be high of getting picked up and hit. Simply, deterrence seems jolting for the moment.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2018/10/14/economy-for-security/

 

[BRAVO_]

Well there is nothing wrong to accept that S-400 is a big threat for us in case of war. So let's just focus on having an equivalent or better AD System instead of making useless topics to find flaws in S-400.

there is no doubt S-400 is a very potent system but we are not going to get that or any other similar system anytime soon due to our political and financial situation therefore discussing the alternative strategy could open new doors, however, one should keep two things in mind,

indo - russian deal was announced in Oct - 2015 three years have been gone, russian have already said their first priority is to fulfill their internal needs and than export which mean after singing the contract minimum two years required to deliver the initial package of two and these two years a huge time to turn the tables ....

second ... incase if it is stationed closer to pakistani border it will be easy for pakistan to use cheap decoys similar to ADM-160 but incase if it is away from the border it will be hard for pakistan to have an inventory of long range decoys due to their cost and expensive EW suits ... in that case best option would be to attack with the barrage of 100 of autolocked cruise missiles with priority targets and even if this option is also not available i would go for long range rockets with guidance system such as A-300 to engage the enemy defense ...​

 

[War Thunder]

Some years in the past, when Indian acquired Phalcon system from Israel. There were so much hype and it seems that is end and all area is under Indian eyes. Nothing odd happened in the area. Even Phalcon was not able to prevent some incident in related areas.
Now same bragging started after signing S400.
In my opinion, any of such system will not bring India's fear to zero levels and their confidence to optimal level. India could only achieve such levels only by being friendly with her neighbourhood and not by bullying them.
Negotiations and talk is only the way out else Indian shopping spree of billions even trillions will not end their complex of fear.
The on going example is Afghanistan, after 17 years of beating of world's super power equipped with so much sophisticated war machines/systems by the hands of Talibans mostly equipped with AK47 & RPGs; finally the super power able to discover that only the table talk will end the issues of USA.

Insecurities are always loud and confidence is always silent...
They always start jumping up and down every time they get something shiny until they are forced to go back to their insecure tiny selves when Pakistan builds up in silence and throws it on their face...
And then they wait for the next news to go all delusional and jumpy about...