Lal "khooni" masjid: Why Mush failed so miserably

[Developereo]

Pakistani society is fractured along political lines, which makes it impossible for anyone to do anything meaningful.

Any action in Pakistani government is viewed through the prism of political loyalties. If the army supports position (A), then the anti-army people will criticize it regardless of merit. If the same action had been proposed by "their guy", these same people would support it. The same bias is true for supporters and opponents of any political party.

Even now, the media columns on Peshawar betray so much biased agenda for or against specific political entities.

At the end of the day, major national issues get bogged down into political point scoring and one-upmanship.

All sides are guilty of it. The pro-anti army people, the pro-anti PML-N, PPP, PTI, MQM, people etc. etc.

Too many people don't see themselves as Pakistanis; their first loyalty seems to be to their "team".

 

[Daneshmand]

Hi,

The one reason we don't have it is that we are only 60 years old----the reason you have it is you history goes back to thousands of years. You have something to fall back on---we are totally clueless and lost.

But in this day and age---and time moving at warp speed---either nations like Pakistan will make it by facing their problems---or become the likes of Somalia---by keeping their eyes shut.

Hey,

Maybe you are right, and that is the reason for the difference. But your reason is a lame excuse. You see what you have said just changed the form of the problem not its nature. Because of these two reasons:

1) If 60 years is a short time to develop a philosophy and you believe you need a "few thousand years" to develop your own philosophy, then why not use philosophies created by others that are readily available for no cost. You certainly use other people's inventions eg cars, computers, internet, phones etc etc. Why not philosophy of life? In fact, Muslims of Indian subcontinent had been heavily using Iranian philosophy for centuries, until 1980's when it was discarded in favor of Saudi import. I am not saying, you should use Iranian philosophy, you could use Chinese, Japanese, Western or Tibetan. But my recommendation remains Iranian for obvious reasons.

What is stopping the Pakistani state to introduce teachings of Molavi or Sa'adi into the curriculum of students in Schools and Madrassas? Except ofcourse, the state itself or the public? Turkey has even whole departments of Molavi-ology staffed with Molavi-ologists in its universities. Why? Why would Turkey need to spend huge money on such a thing? How much money the Pakistani state dedicates to research in departments of philosophy and literature, specially for those areas that Pakistan's problems are intertwined with? Any money at all? I mean having a couple of squadrons of F-16 block so and so for price tag of a few billion dollars is ok. Buying AIM-120 with its technical support at a couple of million dollars a piece is also ok. How about spending a few hundred million dollars on philosophy, culture and literature? What is the problem with that?

Because the disease that is breaking up Pakistan can not be cured by introducing socialism without pumpkin, or capitalism without pumpkin or democracy without pumpkin or even military take-over without pumpkin? Do you know what a pumpkin is? To defeat the zombie ideology that is destroying Pakistan and has taken over your country, you must use a concrete philosophy capable of defeating it. A philosophy that allows and uses alot of pumpkins. Pumpkins for media, pumpkin for religious education and pumpkins for militarism.

2) Say, you do not like to use some one else's philosophy and you have changed your mind about the need for a couple of thousand years to develop one. Fair point. So your obvious question would be, can a nation in the midst of a fast changing time and turbulence, come up with a philosophy? The answer is yes, if that nation is an alive nation and not a dead one. You see, people like Molavi who introduced the philosophy of rational spiritual love into Iranian culture or Sa'adi who introduced un-compromising moderation or Ferdowsi who reinvigorated Iranian nationalism through his poetic depiction of ancient Iranian mythology did not come during good times in Iran.

They were all products of a turbulent time. The most turbulent time in Iranian history which came about with invasion of Mongols. Iranians say, one thing good came out of the Mongol invasion and it was the birth of these giants in Persian literature. The killings and the suffering of Iranian nation forced some one like Sa'adi, a person who loved to be among the ordinary people, the iron-smiths, the farmers, the merchant and the thieves to write a philosophy of moderation for them to read and follow. The brutality and insecurity of times, forced some one like Molavi who was a staunch Aalem/Mullah to turn towards spiritual love and reason. It was the occupation by a foreign army that forced Ferdowsi to write his epics of Iranian nationalism. These were the needs of time. And the Iranian scholars answered the call.

Because of these people, Iran could rise up again after the Mongol invasion. Arabs never did recover from that invasion went from occupation by Mongols to the rule of Turks and then the British and nowadays live under the thumb of US. And to this day, they are oscillating between extreme religiosity and extreme nationalism, failing at both end. All because, they did not understand their philosophical problems. So the question here would be, is Pakistan an alive nation? Can its scholars answer the call of the nation? Because this is not a war that can be won by soldiers or the common man. It is a mind war. It is a battle of ideologies. And Pakistan currently, is losing it. Can Pakistani state or military build a well funded, well protected and well listened-to, center for a handful of scholars working day and night on this critical problem destroying Pakistan? Or no, the Pakistani politicians and generals prefer to buy private properties in UK, US, UAE and Malaysia?

What ever course of action, you choose, it will not be easy. But what you wrote to me though is a recipe for guaranteed disaster, since that would put you at the mercy of wind of luck. And luck seldom has favored nations.

Pakistani society is fractured along political lines, which makes it impossible for anyone to do anything meaningful.

Any action in Pakistani government is viewed through the prism of political loyalties. If the army supports position (A), then the anti-army people will criticize it regardless of merit. If the same action had been proposed by "their guy", these same people would support it. The same bias is true for supporters and opponents of any political party.

Even now, the media columns on Peshawar betray so much biased agenda for or against specific political entities.

At the end of the day, major national issues get bogged down into political point scoring and one-upmanship.

All sides are guilty of it. The pro-anti army people, the pro-anti PML-N, PPP, PTI, MQM, people etc. etc.

Too many people don't see themselves as Pakistanis; their first loyalty seems to be to their "team".

Those are only of tactical significance. To bring people together, you need a common and rational denominator that every body can relate to. An ideology. It better be a moderate, relevant to people's lives and values and a powerful one. Otherwise, it is only going to divide the society more and create even more problems.

 

[Developereo]

Those are only of tactical significance. To bring people together, you need a common and rational denominator that every body can relate to. An ideology. It better be a moderate, relevant to people's lives and values and a powerful one. Otherwise, it is only going to divide the society more and create even more problems.

My point is that any sense of Pakistani national identity has been sacrificed to petty partisan politics and regionalism.

It is the failure of the media, government and, ultimately, society to create a sense of national unity that transcends partisan politics. National issues of supreme importance are held hostage to these partisan loyalties in petty point scoring and one-upmanship

 

[Daneshmand]

My point is that any sense of Pakistani national identity has been sacrificed to petty partisan politics and regionalism.

It is the failure of the media, government and, ultimately, society to create a sense of national unity that transcends partisan politics. National issues of supreme importance are held hostage to these partisan loyalties in petty point scoring and one-upmanship

I understand.

 

[Nihil]

Those are only of tactical significance. To bring people together, you need a common and rational denominator that every body can relate to. An ideology. It better be a moderate, relevant to people's lives and values and a powerful one. Otherwise, it is only going to divide the society more and create even more problems.

As an Indian, I am an outsider to Pakistan's problems. But as an Indian, I have a vested interest in Pakistan's future prosperity. It is only a fool that desires that India to grow, and Pakistan to languish and vice versa. Such disparity is the recipe for disaster, and are the stuff of daydreams for hopped-up armchair generals who like to talk tough, but do not have an ounce of courage or appreciation for reality.
It is in the combined prosperity, and development of South Asia, that everyone's happiness lies.
And there in, lies the question, what does Pakistan want? What is the meaning of Pakistan? Why do you think Narendra Modi won in India, in such a landslide fashion. Because, he offered a meaning of India, however twisted that meaning may be.
As an outside observer, it seems that most of Pakistani society is busy protecting their individual fiefdoms without caring to articulate, or even think about a vision for Pakistan.
As Daneshmand so aptly said, you need a philosophy. But I will go and disagree with him, you cannot import philosophy, it does not work. And Turkey, with the growing dictatorial ambitions of Recep Erdogan is right now a terrible example. The disease is spreading in Turkey, and neither has Turkey's history been particularly great. To develop your philosophy, it has to be something uniquely Pakistani, something that provides development, something that disavows religious extremism must be found. Then you need great orators to convince the people of that ideology. These orators must be fearless, because they will mostly be assassinated. But if that philosophy is sound, the roadmap will be found, and there will be light at the end of this dark tunnel.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hey,

Maybe you are right, and that is the reason for the difference. But your reason is a lame excuse. You see what you have said just changed the form of the problem not its nature. Because of these two reasons:

1) If 60 years is a short time to develop a philosophy and you believe you need a "few thousand years" to develop your own philosophy, then why not use philosophies created by others that are readily available for no cost. You certainly use other people's inventions eg cars, computers, internet, phones etc etc. Why not philosophy of life? In fact, Muslims of Indian subcontinent had been heavily using Iranian philosophy for centuries, until 1980's when it was discarded in favor of Saudi import. I am not saying, you should use Iranian philosophy, you could use Chinese, Japanese, Western or Tibetan. But my recommendation remains Iranian for obvious reasons.

What is stopping the Pakistani state to introduce teachings of Molavi or Sa'adi into the curriculum of students in Schools and Madrassas? Except ofcourse, the state itself or the public? Turkey has even whole departments of Molavi-ology staffed with Molavi-ologists in its universities. Why? Why would Turkey need to spend huge money on such a thing? How much money the Pakistani state dedicates to research in departments of philosophy and literature, specially for those areas that Pakistan's problems are intertwined with? Any money at all? I mean having a couple of squadrons of F-16 block so and so for price tag of a few billion dollars is ok. Buying AIM-120 with its technical support at a couple of million dollars a piece is also ok. How about spending a few hundred million dollars on philosophy, culture and literature? What is the problem with that?

Because the disease that is breaking up Pakistan can not be cured by introducing socialism without pumpkin, or capitalism without pumpkin or democracy without pumpkin or even military take-over without pumpkin? Do you know what a pumpkin is? To defeat the zombie ideology that is destroying Pakistan and has taken over your country, you must use a concrete philosophy capable of defeating it. A philosophy that allows and uses alot of pumpkins. Pumpkins for media, pumpkin for religious education and pumpkins for militarism.

2) Say, you do not like to use some one else's philosophy and you have changed your mind about the need for a couple of thousand years to develop one. Fair point. So your obvious question would be, can a nation in the midst of a fast changing time and turbulence, come up with a philosophy? The answer is yes, if that nation is an alive nation and not a dead one. You see, people like Molavi who introduced the philosophy of rational spiritual love into Iranian culture or Sa'adi who introduced un-compromising moderation or Ferdowsi who reinvigorated Iranian nationalism through his poetic depiction of ancient Iranian mythology did not come during good times in Iran.

They were all products of a turbulent time. The most turbulent time in Iranian history which came about with invasion of Mongols. Iranians say, one thing good came out of the Mongol invasion and it was the birth of these giants in Persian literature. The killings and the suffering of Iranian nation forced some one like Sa'adi, a person who loved to be among the ordinary people, the iron-smiths, the farmers, the merchant and the thieves to write a philosophy of moderation for them to read and follow. The brutality and insecurity of times, forced some one like Molavi who was a staunch Aalem/Mullah to turn towards spiritual love and reason. It was the occupation by a foreign army that forced Ferdowsi to write his epics of Iranian nationalism. These were the needs of time. And the Iranian scholars answered the call.

Because of these people, Iran could rise up again after the Mongol invasion. Arabs never did recover from that invasion went from occupation by Mongols to the rule of Turks and then the British and nowadays live under the thumb of US. And to this day, they are oscillating between extreme religiosity and extreme nationalism, failing at both end. All because, they did not understand their philosophical problems. So the question here would be, is Pakistan an alive nation? Can its scholars answer the call of the nation? Because this is not a war that can be won by soldiers or the common man. It is a mind war. It is a battle of ideologies. And Pakistan currently, is losing it. Can Pakistani state or military build a well funded, well protected and well listened-to, center for a handful of scholars working day and night on this critical problem destroying Pakistan? Or no, the Pakistani politicians and generals prefer to buy private properties in UK, US, UAE and Malaysia?

What ever course of action, you choose, it will not be easy. But what you wrote to me though is a recipe for guaranteed disaster, since that would put you at the mercy of wind of luck. And luck seldom has favored nations.




Those are only of tactical significance. To bring people together, you need a common and rational denominator that every body can relate to. An ideology. It better be a moderate, relevant to people's lives and values and a powerful one. Otherwise, it is only going to divide the society more and create even more problems.

Hi,

Here is the difference why we don't teach Sadi----I say "KHUDA HAFIZ"---the current Pakistani generation says "ALLAH HAFIZ"---I am from an age that had affinity with Persian / Persia / iran even though I am a wahabi--. My father spoke some Persian and wanted me to learn it as well---anyway that's a different story.

Coming back to the post---as I mentioned---time is moving at a warp speed---. The only people that don't know it are the Pakistanis and the Pakistani politicians---here is a country where scool books are sold to paper scrap dealers---where people swear in the name of Allah put their hands on the Qura'an and lie in the court of law bearing God as his witness and judges who accept those pledges.

My country---my motherland is beyond any comprehension of corruptness that any progressive community can be involved in---.

This war that Pakistan has to fight is the war for the induction of CHARACTER in the community---and the first and the foremost step in that direction is the enforcement of order in the community---without order---a nation is a rudderless ship at the mercy of the waves---.

Without character---a nation is a nothing----. I always emphasize----before Prophet Mohammad became a muslim----he was a man of character and so were his colleagues and friends. Pakistanis don't realize and understand that character comes way before being a muslim----. Being a human, being a person, being a man of character supercedes any religious boundaries----but the problem here is that no one is telling that to the Pakistanis---nobody is getting into their faces and yelling back at them and sayng " you are wrong---you are on the wrong track---you wil never reach your destination "---.

Actually one person did---I believe in 2003 or 2004---Pakistan's economy was booming---paks were feeling strong---a reporter asked the Japanese ambassador---what do you thinkabout the Pakistan---would it be successful---he replied " never---pakstais are travelling in the opposite direction of success---they would never accomplish that goal "---and this was when there were good times happening n Pakistan.

My country---my motherland----its citizens are so illiterate---they are so ignorant---they are so arrogant---they are so lost---.

It needs a jihad of its own kind to confront their beliefs---to fight it---you have to be in a position of strength---and to come at them from a position of strength.

The first major step in taking back Pakistan is providing them with fast and expeditious justice----ruthless and brutal justice----. The reason the justice needs to be ruthless brutal and expeditious is to shock the nation to get their attention---once you get their attention and the poor majority knows that there is justice available to them---they will then stop and listen to you---you have to heat up the metal to change its shape---and the only way that is possible is thru extreme justice---enforcement of the order so that law can prevail.

As an Indian, I am an outsider to Pakistan's problems. But as an Indian, I have a vested interest in Pakistan's future prosperity. It is only a fool that desires that India to grow, and Pakistan to languish and vice versa. Such disparity is the recipe for disaster, and are the stuff of daydreams for hopped-up armchair generals who like to talk tough, but do not have an ounce of courage or appreciation for reality.
It is in the combined prosperity, and development of South Asia, that everyone's happiness lies.
And there in, lies the question, what does Pakistan want? What is the meaning of Pakistan? Why do you think Narendra Modi won in India, in such a landslide fashion. Because, he offered a meaning of India, however twisted that meaning may be.
As an outside observer, it seems that most of Pakistani society is busy protecting their individual fiefdoms without caring to articulate, or even think about a vision for Pakistan.
As Daneshmand so aptly said, you need a philosophy. But I will go and disagree with him, you cannot import philosophy, it does not work. And Turkey, with the growing dictatorial ambitions of Recep Erdogan is right now a terrible example. The disease is spreading in Turkey, and neither has Turkey's history been particularly great. To develop your philosophy, it has to be something uniquely Pakistani, something that provides development, something that disavows religious extremism must be found. Then you need great orators to convince the people of that ideology. These orators must be fearless, because they will mostly be assassinated. But if that philosophy is sound, the roadmap will be found, and there will be light at the end of this dark tunnel.

Sir,

Welcome to the forum---and I am grateful of your post----. Thank you.

 

[Developereo]

The one reason we don't have it is that we are only 60 years old----the reason you have it is you history goes back to thousands of years. You have something to fall back on---we are totally clueless and lost.

What kind of "thousand year history" does South Korea have? Australia? USA?

Actually, your comment goes to the heart of why USA rules the day (and the morrow).

It is a very common line of thought that ancient lineage bestows greatness, but the defining characteristic of a winner is that he turns a negative into a positive, a liability into an advantage.

America has taken the lack of history to turn the equation around: America is not about the past; it is about the future. In America, it doesn't matter what your grandfather did yesterday, what matters is what YOU will do tomorrow.

That is why America is so great!

 

[Daneshmand]

Hi,

Here is the difference why we don't teach Sadi----I say "KHUDA HAFIZ"---the current Pakistani generation says "ALLAH HAFIZ"---I am from an age that had affinity with Persian / Persia / iran even though I am a wahabi--. My father spoke some Persian and wanted me to learn it as well---anyway that's a different story.

Coming back to the post---as I mentioned---time is moving at a warp speed---. The only people that don't know it are the Pakistanis and the Pakistani politicians---here is a country where scool books are sold to paper scrap dealers---where people swear in the name of Allah put their hands on the Qura'an and lie in the court of law bearing God as his witness and judges who accept those pledges.

My country---my motherland is beyond any comprehension of corruptness that any progressive community can be involved in---.

This war that Pakistan has to fight is the war for the induction of CHARACTER in the community---and the first and the foremost step in that direction is the enforcement of order in the community---with order---a nation is a rudderless ship at the mercy of the waves---.

Without character---a nation is a nothing----. I always emphasize----before Prophet Mohammad became a muslim----he was a man of character and so were his colleagues and friends. Pakistanis don't realize and understand that character comes way before being a muslim----. Being a human, being a person, being a man of character supercedes any religious boundaries----but the problem here is that no one is telling that to the Pakistanis---nobody is getting into their faces and yelling back at them and sayng " you are wrong---you are on the wrong track---you wil never reach your destination "---.

Actually one person did---I believe in 2003 or 2004---Pakistan's economy was booming---paks were feeling strong---a reporter asked the Japanese ambassador---what do you thinkabout the Pakistan---would it be successful---he replied " never---pakstais are travelling in the opposite direction of success---they would never accomplish that goal "---and this was when there were good times happening n Pakistan.

My country---my motherland----its citizens are so illiterate---they are so ignorant---they are so arrogant---they are so lost---.

It needs a jihad of its own kind to confront their beliefs---to fight it---you have to be in a position of strength---and to come at them from a position of strength.

The first major step in taking back Pakistan is providing them with fast and expeditious justice----ruthless and brutal justice----. The reason the justice needs to be ruthless brutal and expeditious is to shock the nation to get their attention---once you get their attention and the poor majority knows that there is justice available to them---they will then stop and listen to you---you have to heat up the metal to change its shape---and the only way that is possible is thru extreme justice---enforcement of the order so that law can prevail.



Sir,

Welcome to the forum---and I am grateful of your post----. Thank you.

I hope Pakistan will find its way to sanity and prosperity. That is all I can say. Since a nation without hope is only one step away from complete destruction.

 

[Sedqal]

I hope Pakistan will find its way to sanity and prosperity. That is all I can say. Since a nation without hope is only one step away from complete destruction.

Things aren't that bad, TTP lacks any means to overthrow the govt and doesn't enjoy enough support in masses to challenge the state (other then in some pockets of Waziristan). It can however execute terrorist attacks and that will haunt Pakistan for some time. Pakistan has faced far worse (the worst was just before elections of 2008) there is no threat to state now.

 

[Lilja]

Couldnt type because of some sneaky URL popup. duh.

 

[Sedqal]

As an Indian, I am an outsider to Pakistan's problems. But as an Indian, I have a vested interest in Pakistan's future prosperity. It is only a fool that desires that India to grow, and Pakistan to languish and vice versa. Such disparity is the recipe for disaster, and are the stuff of daydreams for hopped-up armchair generals who like to talk tough, but do not have an ounce of courage or appreciation for reality.
It is in the combined prosperity, and development of South Asia, that everyone's happiness lies.
And there in, lies the question, what does Pakistan want? What is the meaning of Pakistan? Why do you think Narendra Modi won in India, in such a landslide fashion. Because, he offered a meaning of India, however twisted that meaning may be.
As an outside observer, it seems that most of Pakistani society is busy protecting their individual fiefdoms without caring to articulate, or even think about a vision for Pakistan.
As Daneshmand so aptly said, you need a philosophy. But I will go and disagree with him, you cannot import philosophy, it does not work. And Turkey, with the growing dictatorial ambitions of Recep Erdogan is right now a terrible example. The disease is spreading in Turkey, and neither has Turkey's history been particularly great. To develop your philosophy, it has to be something uniquely Pakistani, something that provides development, something that disavows religious extremism must be found. Then you need great orators to convince the people of that ideology. These orators must be fearless, because they will mostly be assassinated. But if that philosophy is sound, the roadmap will be found, and there will be light at the end of this dark tunnel.

We never had any problem with our ideology, there are examples abound. For one thing the nation never voted any extremist or Islamic evangelic sort of party to power. Post Bhutto's hanging, General Zia sponsored and projected such parties as a counter weight to popular political parties. For the longest time now the mantra that democracy is unIslamic and evil (not suitable for Pakistan) has been used extensively by military for weakening democratic powers. The so-called Islamic parties lacking any popular appeal gladly joined military in an un-holy alliance. What we hear today from TTP is the exact same thing we heard from military till 2004. The best way to understand the current dynamics is through looking at it as a battle of power between Political parties and Military with TTP being one consequence.

That said a common Pakistani never had any problems of identity, neither Pakistan lacked for meaning. I don't know why anyone would assume that to be the issue. Jinnah and Iqbal are still the most revered personalities, Pakistanis have struggled against every dictator and even came out in huge numbers for a chief justice who was illegally sacked by Mushharaf. As a nation it had shown far more spirit for freedom and democracy then most other nations. Alas our limiting factor has been an adventurous army and now we are paying through our noses for our failure to reign in the military. Still its a phase which will pass within a couple of years.

( I don't agree that India voted Modi for search of identity and meaning. For the longest time it was Nehru's secular and socialist India, Modi has challenged that identity offering a more Hindu and capitalist version. Its not the India lacked an Identity and Modi filled that vacuum)

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

socialims and capitalism are two wings of economy .

you cannot fly with only one, not for more than few decades

The problem in Pakistan is that we have been trying to be socialist without working for it

So we borrow from IMF to run our version of socialism,

And that sir is a pathetic thing to do

Take loan to run free clinics

Doesn't work that way

Socialism and capitalism aren't two wings of an economy. Socialism supports market-intervention whereas capitalism embraces a flawed free market theory (that the market's will work in order to alleviate problems and create social mobility - the markets work for profit, not the common man).

Taking bailouts from the IMF isn't Socialist: it's buying into the capitalist system. Self-sustainability is what Pakistan needs, trade, and so on so forth - the IMF attaches free market, deregulated conditions to its loans in general: that is an anathema to Socialism.

What Pakistan needs - and I concur, as you do, with Daneshmand's post - are socialist principles that underpin its economic policy: that the economy must serve the needs of the people, and not vice-versa. It must then embrace an economic philosophy that is fitting for it: namely, the prioritisation of self-sustainability, R&D and investment. Keynesian theory works if you're a nation like the UK or Japan with low interest on your bonds (so you end up paying less back in real terms), but doesn't if you're a country like Pakistan with high interest on your bonds. For Pakistan, in my opinion, two things need to be done economically:

1. The proper enforcement of the tax system. Do this alone without anything else and it'd do wonders.
2. High taxes, but on a more so proportional basis.

 

[jamahir]

For the longest time it was Nehru's secular and socialist India

nehru's india was never socialist... this i say for maybe the 15th time on pdf...yes, nehru was anti-ritual and non-isolationist but he could never free himself from gandhi's hindu village romanticization... add to that overtly sangh sympathizers like vallabh bhai patel.

the bombay stock exchange was established in 1875, with not an hour interrupted during nehru's time... nehru's india participated on the capitalist-imperialist usa side in the korea war, waging war against socialist north korea which was fighting alongside socialist allies - prc and ussr.

i ask you, in what socialist society will bonded/slave labor ( rural or urban ) be allowed?? as will sati system, female infanticide and "honor killing", interest-based loans, paid medical system?? all this happened in nehru's time and after.

in south asia, only afghanistan ( 1978-1991 ) and nepal ( for a confused short time ) were socialist national governments... and you know what usa did to socialist afghanistan.

pakistan missed the chance to be socialist, when they received muammar gaddafi in the 1970's and only named a sports stadium after him but did not adopt the green book.

Socialism and capitalism aren't two wings of an economy. Socialism supports market-intervention whereas capitalism embraces a flawed free market theory (that the market's will work in order to alleviate problems and create social mobility - the markets work for profit, not the common man)

absolutely... additionally, socialism does not give credibility to the word "market", because that word includes the wrong theory of "supply and demand" irrespective of whether the goods in demand are actually necessary, just or non-harmful... example, cell phones and sweaters for dogs.

Taking bailouts from the IMF isn't Socialist: it's buying into the capitalist system.

the IMF attaches free market, deregulated conditions to its loans in general: that is an anathema to Socialism.

correct... though it must be investigated why the usa government and british government were so keen to remove dominique strauss-kahn as imf chairman and replace him with the nato supporter ( and evil looking ) christine lagarde.

1. The proper enforcement of the tax system. Do this alone without anything else and it'd do wonders.
2. High taxes, but on a more so proportional basis.

no, on socialistic terms, what pakistan immediately needs is abolishing of income tax on individuals, abolishing of fees for delivery to citizens of electricity and water.

think of how much crime and corruption that will remove.

 

[Meengla]

The Lal Masjid operation can't be called a 'failure' but more like a job half done. I think the job remains half done because the thugs are still occupying that place and issuing threats--they need to be taken out in a ruthless way.

As to why the job is half done I think the main reason, indeed, as pointed above, Musharraf lacked the legitimacy which a civilian like Nawaz Sharif or Zardari would have had then. Musharraf got clear support from three parties only: MQM, PPP (Benazir was vocally supportive) and ANP. But the rest--in shameful political expediency--were ambivalent. And also the operation, conducted in the summer of 2007, should be seen in the context of the events from March 2007: The start of the 'Judges Movement'.

Shame on the judges, the politicians, and the journalists who, in order to topple Musharraf, decided to be on the side of the cancer of Lal Masjid. And praise be to leaders like Benazir Bhutto--who was in opposition even then (and was denied even the Sindh govt from the 2002 elections)--who clearly opposed the thugs of Lal Masjid. A true leader 'leads' the way. That Benazir was, despite her flaws.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i dont trust the govt. to have the spine to wipe this burqa maulvi off the face of the planet.....vigilante action would be necessary

if i saw him (by chance) i'd kill that fucker myself and i say it publicly and proudly....i'd hope there are plenty others who would be willing

used children as human shields, brought weapons into a masjid, shot at soldiers who were trying to re-establish a broken peace......i think anyone who kills this B.C. would have their sins washed away

Allah Knows Best.