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Lal "khooni" masjid: Why Mush failed so miserably

what you want me to say? you are buffer zone for India from the fanatics. I want you to get rid of these extremists, kill them if you can sell theses deaths as Indian agents.

Again you are using Islamist lingo

We over here do not call Islamist thugs as Indian agents.

you should not do it either.


None of these terrorists are Indian or Pakistani agents. They are 5th columnists out to set up their own la la land at the expense of BOTH India and Pakistan.


So it will help if you use correct terms.

Thank you
 
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Again you are using Islamist lingo

We over here do not call Islamist thugs as Indian agents.

you should not do it either.


None of these terrorists are Indian or Pakistani agents. They are 5th columnists out to set up their own la la land at the expense of BOTH India and Pakistan.


So it will help if you use correct terms.

Thank you
sorry janab.
 
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@FaujHistorian

May be because the blood of a fauji (SSG Lt Col) was cheaper than the fauji children, perhaps?

Not until 132 kids were slaughtered by his likes, the people of Pakistan realized that Molvi Qurqa was and is an AH indeed. Even today, despite non-bailable arrest warrants in his name, the govt lack the balls to arrest him. The so-called civil society who is challenging him today is being labeled as being Hindus, Christians and Ahmadi agents: Social media latest weapon of attack against Lal Masjid activist - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Molvi Buqra is a CDA employee, that's to say he is inciting violence and supporting those who killed your children astonishingly by getting paid through your taxes, and guess what, i dont see thaikedars of Pakistan saying much about it. Even here, they mold their fingers and point out Fauj, something which in my opinion is akin to molding your own dick so as to **** your own-self!

Enjoy:

@Xeric ,

The problem with military is that they don't have anyone to fight their case on the public forums---and that is what surprises me the most that how out of touch my motherland's military hierarchy is about the power of media.

This show me that the military has a---as we call it in our business---" we don't care---it's not our problem---we don't give a fcuk " kind of attitude.

Pappy----it's all about propaganda my man---it all revolves around marketing yourself---be it PPPP or Nawaz League----or Hindustan or U S military----pak military is being beaten to its knees by a media campaign against it for so long that it is not even funny anymore---.

Look at the U S military----it got its arse handed over to it in Afghanistan---but it is coming home to a heroes welcome---it totally destroyed any stability that the middle east had---and still the Americans are cheering it---and why is that---the media is feeding it with so many lies----that the public does not know what the truth is---.

Like the old jewish saying----say the lie so many times and with so much conviction that the people believe that it is the holy truth----.

Whys is it that the terrorists have better media campaigns than the military??????????????


10462554_656607281118032_3689978124671238444_n.jpg



My brother---can you read this what Hasan Nisar is saying----look at your accomplishments----look at them again and realize that accomplishments on their own don't account to much----you have to keep re-stating your case n front of the media all the time.
 
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@Xeric ,
.......Whys is it that the terrorists have better media campaigns than the military??????????????
...

Agreed with this sentence 100%.

Having studied military history of the West, I don't think military there does anything different than what PA does.

It is just that civilians in the West have sizable chunk of pro-army educated-elite

This elite is responsible for doing all the "propaganda".

Here in Pakistan, our educated elite is Islamist and socialist in nature.

But we do not have sizable chunk of educated elite that is 100% pro-army for the sake of country.


So our educated elite has ditched army due to Islamism
a double whammy for PA?
Socialist part is also against the army due to its connection with USA.


So it is our job, the lucky few who want to support our army instead of Islamists and socialists.


peace



p.s. And terroirist have better media coverage because they support both Islamists and anti-US stance,.
 
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Mmmm. A nation pondering about herself. Alas, even when they are pondering, they are doing it the wrong way.

You see, it is not the fault of a person, a leader, "civilian government", "military government", democracy, theocracy, tactics of battle field and the weapons used. Not at all.

There is a specific problem that you are suffering from, and you clearly are, unable to diagnose it yourselves. Let me put you all, out of your miseries by diagnosing it for you.

The thing is, your society was not ready and perhaps still is not ready to decide whether this "khooni" mosque is bad or good. When it was attacked by your military, the majority of Pakistanis were on the side of the mosque. Still many are, I believe. And will be in future, I am certain. The public is acting in a reactionary manner out of its formed habits, without considering facts and future implications.

The problem you are suffering from is called the lack of a most basic life philosophy that enables individuals of a nation to differentiate between good and bad, specially in a far-sight manner. I am not much familiar with Pakistani literature, or what it has to offer in this aspect if at all, but Persian literature is full of it. I am not bringing Western literature here since, it would be useless, as the problems Western literature and philosophy deals with are entirely different in nature and origin from those faced by Pakistan.

This basic element of philosophy of life, in Persian literature is called Agahi (Awareness, in a philosophical sense), Binesh (Vision, in a philosophical sense) or Basirat (the Arabic equivalent of those words). The Pakistani society suffers from the lack of it. Because of this, they can not see beyond the glitter and surface characteristic of things, be it nationalism or religiosity. They can not decide on good or bad nature of things in a deep thoughtful manner. Maybe because, Pakistan does not have the literature that can teach a society about these things. Let me elaborate with two stories from Molavi, a great Iranian poet whose teachings have had a huge influence over how Iranians think about themselves and their world. I will keep it short, translating the bare minimum to save time:

Story of conversation between a donkey and a camel (Molavi loved to tell stories with animal characters :-)):

A donkey asks a camel, how come I am always having troubles, I mess things up, can not plan for future, and live a miserable life full of pitfalls and stupid mistakes. But you on the other hand, are so cool and patient, can see problems before they arise and avoid them. How can you live a life without pitfalls and frustration in a turbulent world? How come you are so balanced while I get so angry and jealous?

The camel answers, because, you have become a slave of your habits, automatic reactions and raw emotions. While I do two things to avoid your misery. One, I am always observing the world around me as well as observing my own thoughts and emotions objectively and without getting emotionally attached to them, all the while being self aware of the present moment. Two, I try my best to avoid, any habitual and blind reactions, thoughts and feelings that might arise. I look at these from the "height of my reason" and avoid becoming their slave. From this "height", I can see the unwanted and messy result of me becoming the slave of my irrational habits and blind reactions, therefore I am avoiding the misery.

Story of a female servant and her female master:

There was this female servant who was very horny and had trained a donkey belonging to the female master for the purpose of having sex. Her training was superb and the donkey had become excellent at it. She used to have sex with this donkey all the time and was living a happy life. This clever female servant had made a kind of ring out of a pumpkin in order to limit the amount of penetration that the donkey was able to achieve by installing this pumpkin ring over the huge d1k of the donkey during the act.

One day, the female master discovers the story and sees the act. She herself becomes horny and immediately sends the female servant on a long errand, so that she could enjoy the donkey as well. But then, she did not know about the pumpkin. And when the act started, the donkey gored the poor master, killing her. When the servant comes back and sees the situation with the master dead on the ground, she starts crying in regret over master's death and says, you saw only the good part, and you did not pay attention to detail. Didn't you see the pumpkin, you stupid woman? The love of huge d1k, blinded you from seeing the fact of the matter and you paid the price for wanting to do something which you were oblivious to its full implications.

پس کنیزک آمد از اشکاف در دید خاتون را به مرده زیر خر
گفت ای خاتون احمق این چه بود گر ترا استاد خود نقشی نمود
ظاهرش دیدی سرش از تو نهان اوستا ناگشته بگشادی دکان
کیر دیدی هم‌چو شهد و چون خبیص آن کدو را چون ندیدی ای حریص
یا چون مستغرق شدی در عشق خر آن کدو پنهان بماندت از نظر

Similarly here, Pakistan nation is oblivious and ignorant about the pumpkin. Seriously. Even on this thread and on this very forum. The "self awareness", the "purpose of life" and the "philosophical vision" is lacking. Start by asking why you want this or that. It is a good start. And then learn the details and contemplate. As a nation.
 
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People who are surprised at mullahs having a better media campaign than army forget the fact that Mullahs are by profession the masters of confusion, it's their job to propagate.
Their basic training is to stretch what may be true & exaggerate & engineer it in to an absolute true.
How is it that the Baloch insurgency which is much older than TTP, LeJ & sorts has hardly any media campaign even though it originates from a people with some genuine grievances.
As long as we consider Mullahs as idiots for their utopian views for future & nostalgic understanding of distant past we are doomed.
Yes they are perverted, yes they are fanatics but people these guys are more deceptive & determined than a ( Liberal or Whatever ) could ever be.

& the biggest tragedy of it all is that the counter narrative to Mullahs is expressed or presented by The SOCIAL KANJARS on our behalf, when a majority of us are conservatives in our thoughts & practices.
 
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Here in Pakistan, our educated elite is Islamist and socialist in nature.

Socialism isn't a universal evil. The common man must have control of the means of production. Democratic socialism is something Pakistan needs, as opposed to market capitalism.

We must also distinguish between three things: (1) The private faith of individuals and the state's irrelevance in that regard, (2) Legitimate instances of religion and wider idealogy in the pubic sphere, (3) The violent propagation of ideology or religion.
 
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Socialism isn't a universal evil. The common man must have control of the means of production. Democratic socialism is something Pakistan needs, as opposed to market capitalism.

We must also distinguish between three things: (1) The private faith of individuals and the state's irrelevance in that regard, (2) Legitimate instances of religion and wider idealogy in the pubic sphere, (3) The violent propagation of ideology or religion.


socialims and capitalism are two wings of economy .

you cannot fly with only one, not for more than few decades

The problem in Pakistan is that we have been trying to be socialist without working for it

So we borrow from IMF to run our version of socialism,

And that sir is a pathetic thing to do

Take loan to run free clinics

Doesn't work that way

Mmmm. A nation pondering about herself. Alas, even when they are pondering, they are doing it the wrong way.

You see, it is not the fault of a person, a leader, "civilian government", "military government", democracy, theocracy, tactics of battle field and the weapons used. Not at all.

There is a specific problem that you are suffering from, and you clearly are, unable to diagnose it yourselves. Let me put you all, out of your miseries by diagnosing it for you.

The thing is, your society was not ready and perhaps still is not ready to decide whether this "khooni" mosque is bad or good. When it was attacked by your military, the majority of Pakistanis were on the side of the mosque. Still many are, I believe. And will be in future, I am certain. The public is acting in a reactionary manner out of its formed habits, without considering facts and future implications.

The problem you are suffering from is called the lack of a most basic life philosophy that enables individuals of a nation to differentiate between good and bad, specially in a far-sight manner. I am not much familiar with Pakistani literature, or what it has to offer in this aspect if at all, but Persian literature is full of it. I am not bringing Western literature here since, it would be useless, as the problems Western literature and philosophy deals with are entirely different in nature and origin from those faced by Pakistan.

This basic element of philosophy of life, in Persian literature is called Agahi (Awareness, in a philosophical sense), Binesh (Vision, in a philosophical sense) or Basirat (the Arabic equivalent of those words). The Pakistani society suffers from the lack of it. Because of this, they can not see beyond the glitter and surface characteristic of things, be it nationalism or religiosity. They can not decide on good or bad nature of things in a deep thoughtful manner. Maybe because, Pakistan does not have the literature that can teach a society about these things. Let me elaborate with two stories from Molavi, a great Iranian poet whose teachings have had a huge influence over how Iranians think about themselves and their world. I will keep it short, translating the bare minimum to save time:

Story of conversation between a donkey and a camel (Molavi loved to tell stories with animal characters :-)):

A donkey asks a camel, how come I am always having troubles, I mess things up, can not plan for future, and live a miserable life full of pitfalls and stupid mistakes. But you on the other hand, are so cool and patient, can see problems before they arise and avoid them. How can you live a life without pitfalls and frustration in a turbulent world? How come you are so balanced while I get so angry and jealous?

The camel answers, because, you have become a slave of your habits, automatic reactions and raw emotions. While I do two things to avoid your misery. One, I am always observing the world around me as well as observing my own thoughts and emotions objectively and without getting emotionally attached to them, all the while being self aware of the present moment. Two, I try my best to avoid, any habitual and blind reactions, thoughts and feelings that might arise. I look at these from the "height of my reason" and avoid becoming their slave. From this "height", I can see the unwanted and messy result of me becoming the slave of my irrational habits and blind reactions, therefore I am avoiding the misery.

Story of a female servant and her female master:

There was this female servant who was very horny and had trained a donkey belonging to the female master for the purpose of having sex. Her training was superb and the donkey had become excellent at it. She used to have sex with this donkey all the time and was living a happy life. This clever female servant had made a kind of ring out of a pumpkin in order to limit the amount of penetration that the donkey was able to achieve by installing this pumpkin ring over the huge d1k of the donkey during the act.

One day, the female master discovers the story and sees the act. She herself becomes horny and immediately sends the female servant on a long errand, so that she could enjoy the donkey as well. But then, she did not know about the pumpkin. And when the act started, the donkey gored the poor master, killing her. When the servant comes back and sees the situation with the master dead on the ground, she starts crying in regret over master's death and says, you saw only the good part, and you did not pay attention to detail. Didn't you see the pumpkin, you stupid woman? The love of huge d1k, blinded you from seeing the fact of the matter and you paid the price for wanting to do something which you were oblivious to its full implications.

پس کنیزک آمد از اشکاف در دید خاتون را به مرده زیر خر
گفت ای خاتون احمق این چه بود گر ترا استاد خود نقشی نمود
ظاهرش دیدی سرش از تو نهان اوستا ناگشته بگشادی دکان
کیر دیدی هم‌چو شهد و چون خبیص آن کدو را چون ندیدی ای حریص
یا چون مستغرق شدی در عشق خر آن کدو پنهان بماندت از نظر

Similarly here, Pakistan nation is oblivious and ignorant about the pumpkin. Seriously. Even on this thread and on this very forum. The "self awareness", the "purpose of life" and the "philosophical vision" is lacking. Start by asking why you want this or that. It is a good start. And then learn the details and contemplate. As a nation.


Agha Jaan

you have put Darya in a kooza (rivers worth of knowledge in a small wrapper)

bravo
 
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Agha Jaan

you have put Darya in a kooza (rivers worth of knowledge in a small wrapper)

bravo

Sir jee,

Thanks for reading it. By the way we pronounce it Koozeh. In old Persian it used to be Kooza, nowadays in modern Persian such an ending is pronounced "eh".

Happy contemplation!
 
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Mmmm. A nation pondering about herself. Alas, even when they are pondering, they are doing it the wrong way.

You see, it is not the fault of a person, a leader, "civilian government", "military government", democracy, theocracy, tactics of battle field and the weapons used. Not at all.

There is a specific problem that you are suffering from, and you clearly are, unable to diagnose it yourselves. Let me put you all, out of your miseries by diagnosing it for you.

The thing is, your society was not ready and perhaps still is not ready to decide whether this "khooni" mosque is bad or good. When it was attacked by your military, the majority of Pakistanis were on the side of the mosque. Still many are, I believe. And will be in future, I am certain. The public is acting in a reactionary manner out of its formed habits, without considering facts and future implications.

The problem you are suffering from is called the lack of a most basic life philosophy that enables individuals of a nation to differentiate between good and bad, specially in a far-sight manner. I am not much familiar with Pakistani literature, or what it has to offer in this aspect if at all, but Persian literature is full of it. I am not bringing Western literature here since, it would be useless, as the problems Western literature and philosophy deals with are entirely different in nature and origin from those faced by Pakistan.

This basic element of philosophy of life, in Persian literature is called Agahi (Awareness, in a philosophical sense), Binesh (Vision, in a philosophical sense) or Basirat (the Arabic equivalent of those words). The Pakistani society suffers from the lack of it. Because of this, they can not see beyond the glitter and surface characteristic of things, be it nationalism or religiosity. They can not decide on good or bad nature of things in a deep thoughtful manner. Maybe because, Pakistan does not have the literature that can teach a society about these things. Let me elaborate with two stories from Molavi, a great Iranian poet whose teachings have had a huge influence over how Iranians think about themselves and their world. I will keep it short, translating the bare minimum to save time:

Story of conversation between a donkey and a camel (Molavi loved to tell stories with animal characters :-)):

A donkey asks a camel, how come I am always having troubles, I mess things up, can not plan for future, and live a miserable life full of pitfalls and stupid mistakes. But you on the other hand, are so cool and patient, can see problems before they arise and avoid them. How can you live a life without pitfalls and frustration in a turbulent world? How come you are so balanced while I get so angry and jealous?

The camel answers, because, you have become a slave of your habits, automatic reactions and raw emotions. While I do two things to avoid your misery. One, I am always observing the world around me as well as observing my own thoughts and emotions objectively and without getting emotionally attached to them, all the while being self aware of the present moment. Two, I try my best to avoid, any habitual and blind reactions, thoughts and feelings that might arise. I look at these from the "height of my reason" and avoid becoming their slave. From this "height", I can see the unwanted and messy result of me becoming the slave of my irrational habits and blind reactions, therefore I am avoiding the misery.

Story of a female servant and her female master:

There was this female servant who was very horny and had trained a donkey belonging to the female master for the purpose of having sex. Her training was superb and the donkey had become excellent at it. She used to have sex with this donkey all the time and was living a happy life. This clever female servant had made a kind of ring out of a pumpkin in order to limit the amount of penetration that the donkey was able to achieve by installing this pumpkin ring over the huge d1k of the donkey during the act.

One day, the female master discovers the story and sees the act. She herself becomes horny and immediately sends the female servant on a long errand, so that she could enjoy the donkey as well. But then, she did not know about the pumpkin. And when the act started, the donkey gored the poor master, killing her. When the servant comes back and sees the situation with the master dead on the ground, she starts crying in regret over master's death and says, you saw only the good part, and you did not pay attention to detail. Didn't you see the pumpkin, you stupid woman? The love of huge d1k, blinded you from seeing the fact of the matter and you paid the price for wanting to do something which you were oblivious to its full implications.

پس کنیزک آمد از اشکاف در دید خاتون را به مرده زیر خر
گفت ای خاتون احمق این چه بود گر ترا استاد خود نقشی نمود
ظاهرش دیدی سرش از تو نهان اوستا ناگشته بگشادی دکان
کیر دیدی هم‌چو شهد و چون خبیص آن کدو را چون ندیدی ای حریص
یا چون مستغرق شدی در عشق خر آن کدو پنهان بماندت از نظر

Similarly here, Pakistan nation is oblivious and ignorant about the pumpkin. Seriously. Even on this thread and on this very forum. The "self awareness", the "purpose of life" and the "philosophical vision" is lacking. Start by asking why you want this or that. It is a good start. And then learn the details and contemplate. As a nation.

Hi,

The one reason we don't have it is that we are only 60 years old----the reason you have it is you history goes back to thousands of years. You have something to fall back on---we are totally clueless and lost.

But in this day and age---and time moving at warp speed---either nations like Pakistan will make it by facing their problems---or become the likes of Somalia---by keeping their eyes shut.
 
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This is one question (and the following ones) that Gen,. Raheel must be asking all the time,

Why did the precious blood of SSG Col. Islam went to waste

Why Mullah burqa posh is still roaring from the khooni musjid.

Why why why?



@Slav Defence, @Luftwaffe, @WebMaster, @Jungibaaz, @jaibi, @notsuperstitious, @Azlan Haider, @ajpirzada, @DESERT FIGHTER,
@AgNoStiC MuSliM, @Jazzbot, @Jf Thunder, @Hyperion, @JonAsad, @Nihonjin1051, @cirr, @Cherokee @Donatello, @Genesis, @Bamxa, @SarthakGanguly, @Cat Shannon, @Butchcassidy, @Norwegian, @Mr.UTurn, @GreenFalcon, @Syed.Ali.Haider,


@Joe Shearer, @scorpionx, @Irfan Baloch, @orangzaib, @jhungary, @Xeric, @Icarus, @CENTCOM
Thats what happens when you dont finish the job you started.
Maybe musharaf was fearing backlash from the religious nutcases within the army..main kisi se darta warta nahin..bas baatein hi thi
 
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This is one question (and the following ones) that Gen,. Raheel must be asking all the time,

Why did the precious blood of SSG Col. Islam went to waste

Why Mullah burqa posh is still roaring from the khooni musjid.

Why why why?



@Slav Defence, @Luftwaffe, @WebMaster, @Jungibaaz, @jaibi, @notsuperstitious, @Azlan Haider, @ajpirzada, @DESERT FIGHTER,
@AgNoStiC MuSliM, @Jazzbot, @Jf Thunder, @Hyperion, @JonAsad, @Nihonjin1051, @cirr, @Cherokee @Donatello, @Genesis, @Bamxa, @SarthakGanguly, @Cat Shannon, @Butchcassidy, @Norwegian, @Mr.UTurn, @GreenFalcon, @Syed.Ali.Haider,


@Joe Shearer, @scorpionx, @Irfan Baloch, @orangzaib, @jhungary, @Xeric, @Icarus, @CENTCOM

- The precious blood of SSG Col. Islam went to waste because he had a dumb COAS who thought that attacking a mosque right in the heart of Islamabad was a good idea. A dictator who had by the way no legal right to rule and was occupying the presidency with same legitimacy as TTP is occupying some areas in FATA today (threat of violence). Kindly ponder about three specific issues pertaining to Lal Mosque episode.

1. After the attack when it was clear as day that a red line has been crossed and there will be a blow-back from extremists the government made no effort to move the more extremist madrassahs out of Islamabad. It was the perfect time to do so. Why is that?

2. The weapons and ammunition which Musharraf the illegal dictator claimed they found in Lal mosque were STOLEN from the police warehouse where it was stored. Thus it brought suspicion to whether that ammunition/ weapons were actually found in the Lal mosque or planted later by military. And if stolen by extremists it meant that situation on ground was exactly the same even after the operation (same number of madrassahs, same khateeb and same ammunition). Please go through > Lal Masjid weapons stolen from police lockup - - DAWN.COM

3. A police DSP (I think his name was Talal) actually did a mini operation and got the library (next to Lal mosque) free from the danda wielding lunatics of Lal mosque (in a professional way without all the hoopla). For that job he earned a fast transfer by the same govt (Mushy the illegal). There is absolutely no question that Islamabad police if allowed would have solved the issue on its own. Why is that police was not used?

- Mullah Burqa posh is still roaming around because he has an excellent reason. In the country where the defining moments of military are either hanging an elected PM or jumping over the walls of parliament house it is clear as day that there is no rule of law - might is right. Mullah Burqa probably understands fully well that Mullahs have a better excuse for a coup (Islam) then the military.

A more relevant question today would be 'what is the difference between Army taking over with threat of violence and TTP taking over with threat of violence'?

Another relevant question would be 'is it possible Mushy the illegal deliberately screwed the whole issue so he could find an excuse for pro-longing his illegal and unconstitutional rule?
 
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Thats what happens when you dont finish the job you started.
Maybe musharaf was fearing backlash from the religious nutcases within the army..main kisi se darta warta nahin..bas baatein hi thi
If that was the case then why he is facing the propaganda case of red mosque now?
Cause he did the job, which was thrown to him not just by the pakistan,s national interests but also of the demand by the intencive international community fearing the Pakistan's fall under red mosque clerk & their army of terrorists .
Pakistan still looks far better player in the international community when it cleared the mess in red mosque than today ?
at a time when no civillian govt is ready to take on the terrorists who helped them came to power.
False propaganda is the fest of Pakistani society,on which it is based on?
 
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Operation was deliberately delayed for three days if I remember :) (SSG kept on taking positions and then moving back throughout these three days)

There was some key political event which was due to take place but I can't seem to remember what exactly !

I really do admire Musharraf, he was a patriot and a nationalist (Pakistan first)...this is something many people didn't like.

His blunders though...my God !
 
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