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ഗതികേട് കൊണ്ടാണ് ഞങ്ങള്* മതം മാറിയത് എന്നു തന്നോടാരാ പറഞ്ഞത് ? പുതിയ RSS "ലഖുലേഖനത്തില്*"" "കണ്ടതാണോ ?

As for early evidence, Syrian christians were a trading community. Tharisapalli copper plates of 849 A.D display the trading rights conferred to Quilon's christian community by the Chera emperor Sthanu Ravi.

Fast forward to 1028 A.D, there is the Tazhakad church inscription assigned to the chera king Rajasimha.

Moving on to 1225 A.D, copper plate issued by Vira Raghava chakravarthi indicates title given to christian merchant Iravi Korthanan as the king's great merchant supremo to the world.

Mozhuvanum alla pakshe Good percentage .....what are you trying to prove ,I never denied Syrians came to kerala .theory..there may be some settled here ,But claiming 70% of Kerala Christians is Syrian origin is absolutely stupid
 
ഗതികേട് കൊണ്ടാണ് ഞങ്ങള്* മതം മാറിയത് എന്നു തന്നോടാരാ പറഞ്ഞത് ? പുതിയ RSS "ലഖുലേഖനത്തില്*"" "കണ്ടതാണോ ?

അതല്ല അതിനപ്പുറം ആ 'നല്ല' മക്കള്* പറഞ്ഞു നടക്കും

ഇത്രേം 'insecure' ആയ ഒരു കൂട്ടം ആളുകള്* വേറെ കാണില്ല
 
Mozhuvanum alla pakshe Good percentage .....what are you trying to prove ,I never denied Syrians came to kerala .theory..there may be some settled here ,But claiming 70% of Kerala Christians is Syrian origin is absolutely stupid

The Christians converted by portuguese are a member of Latin Catholic Church of kerala (15 lakh).
The Christians converted by British missionarier are in CSI and other anglican churches (CSI also have a good propotion of sheep stealed from syriac christian churches)
Syrian Christians are of many denominations -Syro Malabar(35 lakh),Orthodox(28 lakh),Jacobite(8 lakh),Marthoma(10 lakh) and syro malankara(5lakh) contain Christians converted by st.Thomas/by latter evengelism by Nazranis.

of these Syro Malabar and Syro Malankara are catholic,rest arent.So how did they acheive high population??
 
Mozhuvanum alla pakshe Good percentage .....what are you trying to prove ,I never denied Syrians came to kerala .theory..there may be some settled here ,But claiming 70% of Kerala Christians is Syrian origin is absolutely stupid

My only intention here is to convey the fact that Christianity is not a religion that arrived as a product of Portuguese settlement in Kerala. Its been here (in Kerala) for much longer and is far too old to be categorized as a foreign import.
 
Christianity definitely spread more and more due to the Portuguese and it was there only in pockets before.

It was spread right from Goa to the south due to the inquisition practiced by the Portuguese.
 
Christianity definitely spread more and more due to the Portuguese and it was there only in pockets before.

It was spread right from Goa to the south due to the inquisition practiced by the Portuguese.

No one's denying that. The arguments here are specifically meant for Kerala.
 
That article is from "Hindu" ,and based on archaeological evidence ...not some Christian propaganda

RSS argument:The tomb of st.thomas was built by portuguese

the truth: There is a wrong notion among some secular historians that the Tomb of St.Thomas,at Mylapore was located and identified by the Colonial Portuguese, who came here, in the 16th century. The fact is different. They got information about the tomb, from Nazranis of Kerala, and World travelers and other sources, cited in the preceding paragraph of this article. In the initial period , Portuguese religious leaders were reluctant to conduct any excavation. For them, the ancient East Syriac Christian group, popularly known as MarThomaNazranis ( St.Thomas Christians), was not under the direct control of Roman See, hence schismatic. It was as a part of their strategy to win over these Christians by hook or Crooke, they under took this unilateral excavation.
“For several centuries there was the Sepulcher of Thomas, well built, indeed; the brick in its eastern wall belong to the 1st century,AD” ( Hambye.S.J,St.Thomas & India.).
These bricks have been well preserved in the eastern wall of the tomb and when Mr. A.H.Longhurst, the Superindent of the Archaeological Department, Southern Circle, visited the tomb in 1921, he said, that it must be very ancient, for the bricks used were of the same type as those used for the Buddhist Stupa s, only that those in the Telugu country and in the North of India… ( See Thomapedia, p.5.). Twenty years later, excavations were made to the south of Mylapore. The measurements and nature of the bricks found in the eastern wall of apostle’s tomb ( 15” x 8” x 2.9” ), and the oldest bricks unearthed by the excavation of 1945,at Arikkamedu near Pondicherry ( 150 km south of Mylapore ), the Roman trading station of 1st century, AD, looks one and the same. ( Ibid p.5. ) Remember, according to tradition, Martyrdom,of the Apostle took place in AD,72.
Further, the tomb excavated by the Portuguese at Mylapore, is no ordinary tomb (3 ½ mts deep) like the tomb of the kings buried in the vicinity. ( See references in Rambanpaattu 5,7,3, and 2 ). ( The Indian tradition affirms that apostle Thomas died near the ancient town of Mylapore,his mortal remains were buried in the town, the spot in the chapel known after his name, that the Portuguese excavated in 1523, A D. According to tradition and clear description by Early Church Fathers like St.Ephraem,4th c. , St Paulinus of Nola,431. A.D., and St. Gregory of Tours, 594 A D , the mortal remains of St. Thomas, brought by an unnamed merchant, from India, subsequently buried in the shrine at Edessa, in Mesopotamia.

RSS argument:there was no importance to mylapur before 16 th century

the truth: The tomb of Mylapore is unique in the world in the sense that it is the only tomb believed to have been the burial-place of Apostle Thomas.The following words will show the in separable connection between Mylapore tomb and Nazrani religious practices:
“Their ‘holy water’,the preparation of which was left the Sacristan, consisted of common water, in which a few particles of earth, brought from the grave of St Thomas, at Mailapuram, were dissolved”( Accounts of Portuguese writer, Paoli, quoted by Francis Day in ‘ Land of Perumals’ p.219).Hosten ( in his book ' Antiquities from San Thome', p.4-5 ), quotes Mar Solomon(Archbishop of Perath-Meshan, 1222 AD.), as saying that the city in India, where Apostle Thomas is buried is Mahluph. No other place in India, but Mylapore answers to the last part of the statement.

There are concrete evidences from history, to show that right from the early centuries of Christian Era, pilgrims flocked to the traditional site at Mylapore ( South India ), where Apostle Thomas lay buried. Not only from Malabar ( Kerala ), but also from numerous foreign countries. The candid references from Asseman ( Joseph Aloysius, Professor & an authority on Syro-Chaldaic and Arabic languages, in his book ‘A commentary on Chaldean Patriarchs’ ), about the visits by the Nazranis of Malabar, to the Mylapore tomb. In the pre-Portuguese period, Malabar Christians used to make pilgrimages to the Mylapore tomb. He confirms that, it took 25 days to reach Mylapore, by land route ,as reported by four Chaldean bishops, in 1504, who after their arrival in Malabar, wrote their Patriarch, Elias. Eminent Church historian, from Kerala, Mathias Mundadan, in his book, elucidates the centuries long pilgrimage by Nazranis, to pay homage at the holy sepulcher of Thomasleeha (A.M.Mundadan, ‘ Traditions S T C’, p.12 ).

Yet another testimony on the subject, is that of St.Gregory of Tours ( 538—594). In Gloria Martyrum (31,32, qtd.in Thomapedia,p.204.), he gives extensive information about the martyrdom and burial of the Apostle in India ( and transfer of his holy mortal remains to Edessa , in Syria ), on the strength of the first hand information, obtained in writing from certain Theodore of Syria, who visited the Mylapore tomb. Western travellers,including Marco Polo (1293 ),Franciscan Friar, Monte Carvino , John Maringnoli (1349), Nicolo De Conti (1430 ),visited the Mylapore tomb, much early to the coming of the Portuguese. Early church father, John Chrysostom, ( 347—407 ), asserts the significance of Mylapore tomb of Thomas, by comparing it with those of Peter and Paul The great Arab traveler,Berbossa who visited India,in 1515 AD, also confirms that the tomb, at Chinnamala , in Mylapore, is of the Apostle ( Mundadan, Ibid,p.18 ). ( These clear references, will expose the prejudicial approach of eminent historians like Dr.M. G.S.Narayanan, that ‘Mylapore tomb’ has no importance before Portuguese Colonial rule ! ).



RSS argument : portuguese first put st.thomas in India

truth:World travelers on St.Thomas Christians :
In their travelogues, renowned World Travelers, Cosmos Indicopleustes (335 A.D.), and Marco Polo ( 1293), and Nicolo De Conti ( 1430 ), give valuable references about the flourishing Church of Malabar, said to have been established by Apostle Thomas.
The first indisputable reference to Christians in Malabar is that of Cosmos Indicopleustes, (surname, means ,the Indian Voyager ) , a clergy man of Alexandrian Church. He was specially deputed with the study of the spread of Christianity ,all over the world. He published his findings, through his voluminous work, Topographia Chrisiana ( Christian Topography ). In this book ,he describes Male ( Malabar ), as the most reputed pepper growing area, indicating ‘Male ou pousse le poivre’. Describing the vast multitude Christians in the area, he confirms that in a place called ‘Kalliana’, there is a Bishop, ordained in Persia and one likewise, on the island of Diascoria too. (Ref. Mingana.A.,Early spread of Chritianity,p.29-30 ). As per general opinion, Male is Malabar;Kalliana is, Kalyan near Mumbai. And Diascoria means, Socotra.
Maco polo, the Venetian traveler, who visited the tomb of St. Thomas in 1293, states “The body of Messer St.Thomas,the apostle, lies in the province of Maabar ( Malabar), at a little town having no great population….Both Christians and Saracens, however, greatly frequent it in pilgrimage, for the Saracens also hold the saint in great reverence” ( Henry Yule, the book of Marco Polo II / 18 )
St.Thomas & India:Evidences from Syriac liturgy.
Lex orandi, Lex credendi is a dictum in Theology,.means,Law of prayer is the Law of Faith. When a particular liturgical verse/hymn is chosen for using/reading in a particular day/occasion,(eg.Martyrdom/Death anniversary/Feast etc. ), it will be having a rational basis (e.g.history). It was the practice prevailed in the early days of Christianity, that a particular day/date, in the calendar, is set apart, in memory of the Apostles or approved Saints. “All who depart out of this world, as Martyrs, should be commemorated on the day when they were put to death”, says Canon 18 of ancient Syriac document, 'Didascalia' (Quoted by F.C. Burkitt—Kerala Society Papers, Series VI / 287 )This was the general principle, upon which, ecclesiastical calendars were prepared and used by various Churches in the early Christianity. (Of course there are exceptions).
Readings, from the 'Liturgy of the Hours', selected for the death anniversary/birth day of Saints ( e.g. St.Thomas )must have considerations, on these lines. Thus, if we scan several ecclesiastical calendars,martyrologies and liturgical texts of Mesopotamian, Coptic, Greek, and Latin Churches, we can see some direct or indirect references about the Mission and Martyrdom of St.Thomas in India.
Dukhrana ( St.Thomas Day ),July 3rd.
Commemoration of Dukharana, on the 3rd of Thamus, ie. 3rd July, is almost universal in all the Syriac Churches, East Syriac( Chaldean ) as well as West Syriac ( Jacobite), at least from 4th Century,A.D. This is, said to be, in accordance with Hieronymian Martyrology and tradition.Further,July 3rd as Martyrdom day for Latin Church too, as clearly attested by Nissenus and St.Ephrem. ( Ibid, p.297. )
The under noted references from the ancient Syriac Liturgy will elucidate this point:
1) In the East Syriac (Chaldian ) Liturgy (General):
In the “Liturgy of the Hours”, Lelya (The Night Prayer) celebrates St.Thomas in India., saying”, Thomas died on a seashore in India, pierced by a lance” and in Sapra ( Morning Prayer), ‘Apostle Thomas, you built your tent on the seashore; pray to God Almighty to fill us with joy together with you in heaven’.
2) In the East Syriac ( Syro-Malabar) Liturgy :
In the “Liturgy of the Hours for priests’”,in use from early centuries, there are clear references , about the Martyrdom of St.Thomas (Dukhrana), in India:
i) In the Lelya prayer of 1st, 5th ,6th day and of St.Thomas’Day ( Dukhrana) & in
ii) Ramsa prayer.
In the East Syriac Liturgy of Persian Churches, Dukhrana prayer is limited to one day,where as that of Malabar Church, it is for a week.
3) Jacobite/ Orthodox Syrian Liturgy (Malankara):
For Churches of Kerala, using West Syriac Liturgy and Missal of St.James, too, St.Thomas Day (Dukhorono), is a” holy day of Obligation. In various hours of “Divine Praises” from time immemorial, recital of verses with clear reference to the Apostle and India.
4) Antiochean (Syrian) Liturgy:
In the prayers of Sapra (Morning ) and of Dukorono (St.Thomas Day) there are references about Thomas and India.
5)Western( Latin) Liturgy:
In the Western Liturgical calendar, Sacramentanes, Missal and Roman Martyrology of St.Jerome, extensive references about the mission of Thomas in India.
6) Byzantine (Greek )Liturgy:
In the Menologion (Martyrology ), of the Greek Church,codified in the 10th Century and Liturgy Text, (Synaxarion ),of the Church of Constantinople, October 6th is the day of Martyrdom of St.Thomas.
7) Ethiopian Liturgy:
In the ancient daily prayer book of Ethiopian Church, October 6th is the feast for remembering St.Thomas.
These direct references from the ancient liturgical texts provide authentic collateral evidence to historians and researchers.

Patristic testimonies on Saint Thomas:
Early Church fathers like, Ephraem ( 300-373 ) , Origen ( 186-255) ), Eusebius ( 260-340), Jerome (345-419), Paulinus ( 353-431), Ambros (333-397 ) etc., several ecclesiastical calendars, Martyrology and other works, explicitly connects St.Thomas, with India.
Almost all of them concur in saying that after the dispersion of the Apostles, St. Thomas preached among the Parthians and Oriental Churches in Syria, and Mesopotamia. They have always attributed to St.Thomas the preaching of the Gospel in India, and even far away China.
Witness of St.Ephraem, the Syrian.
One of earliest and most authentic accounts regarding the mission and martyrdom of Saint Thomas in India, is that of the great Poet-Theologian, and Doctor of the Church, St.Ephraem,(300-373). He sings the praise of Apostle Thomas, through his several hymns, especially of his Nisibene Hymn,which he lauds India, as his field of evangelization, place of death and burial. He also refers, subsequent transfer of his mortal remains to Edessa. The Nisibene Hymn, 42, clearly high lights, the following points:
1.Thomas,the Apostle, suffered martyrdom in India (Strophe 1.)
2. His body was buried in India (Ibid).
3 His bones were thence removed by a merchant to the City of Edessa.(II –III)
4.Miracles in Mylapore and Edessa.(I-III)
In a hymn, about the relics of Thomas at Edessa,he depicts as Satan exclaiming:
The Apostle whom I killed in India,comes to meet me in Edessa.( Carmina Nisibena---Quoted by Medlycot p.31St.Gregory,Nazianzen.).
, in a homily, connects the name of the Apostle by saying, “Judaea was the country of Peter,what had Saul to do with the Gentiles, Luke with Achaia, Andrew with Epirus , Thomas, with India, Mark with Italy”.
Another Church father, St.Ambrose, in his writings,mentions nations given to the Apostles by specifying, "kingdoms that had been shut off by rugged mountains lay open to them, as India to Thomas, as Persia to Matthew.”
The 9th century Martyrology of Usuard ( Idibus Juli ) distinguishes, the India of Bartholomeo , from the India of Thomas,which latter, it says, “is on the confines of the world”, where, “ Thomas pierced through.”
In the Martyrology of St.Jerome,(4th c )and in the liturgical text ‘Menologion‘ of the Greek Church,there are clear references about the Apostolate of St.Thomas in India and martyrdom in Mylapore.Saint Jerome gives extensive and authentic accounts about the Apostle, by saying,
(1) “he was with Thomas in India with Peter in Rome,and with Paul in Illyricum”.
(2) “….Apostle Thomas preached the Lord’s gospel to the Parthians, the Medes, the Persians……..died at Calamina in India and was buried there" ( C.M.Agur—Church History of Travancore,p.5 ).
St.Ambrose (333-397), Bishop of Milan, asserts ‘when Lord Jesus said to Apostles ‘go and teach all nations ‘even the kingdoms that had been shut off by barbaric mountains lay upon to them ‘as India to Thomas as Persia to Matthew’. (Ambrose,Enarratio, p.45.—quoted by Mackenzie, in T S M, Vol.2 /p.136). Describing the journey of a Thebean, he says, he reached ‘Muzirim totius Indiae citra Gangem emporium’ (Muziris, the emporium of all India on the side of Ganges) ( Ibid, p.45--, quoted by George Nedungatt in ‘Quest for the Historical Thomas..p.76.) Historians are almost unanimous that Muziris is none other than Kodungalloor / Pattanam near Paravoor in Kerala.of Pantaenus to India (189- 190.A.D)
The earliest historical event, which provides authentic information about the early century Nazrani Christians, and their Apostolic origin, is the visit of Pantaenus.
It has been asserted by Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and the first Church historian, (264-340, A.D. ) that,Pantaenus , of Catechetical School at Alexandria, visited India. He met Christians there, who understood to have acquired Christianity from the Apostolic period itself. He happened to see a Hebrew (Aramaic) copy of the Gospel of Matthew, with them. From his interaction with them, he concluded that it was from Bartholomew, one of the Apostles, they became Christians. He brought home Gospel of Matthew, obtained from them.
Almost a similar reference can be seen in the descriptions of another Church Father St.Jerome,(345-490). According to him,Pantaenus , a Stoic, scholar-philosopher, was sent to India by Demetrius, Bishop of Alexandria, to preach Christ to the Brahmans and the philosophers….Clement goes on to describe some more details : the philosophers and gymnosophists with whom Pantaenus came into contact and mentions Bramanas and " Sarmane, whom are also called Hylobii ; and neither in habit of shave roofs over their heads, and know not marriage and begetting children"( Quoted in Madras State Gazetteers,1915,-- Syrian Christians I / 201 ).
Though, historians in general, admit the visit of Pantaenus as a historical reality, a section of them , doubts about the specific detail. According to them, the word India, however, of those days, has a wide meaning, a large portion of the globe, consisting, two Indias, India Major and the Indian subcontinent. Hence, which part of the India, Pantaenus visited, is not certain. Refuting this argument, eminent old generation English historian, William Logan, ( in his book, Malabar Manual, p.17 ), opines, ‘it is extremely likely that it was on the Malabar Coast’. It is certain that intercourse between Alexandria and the Malabar Coast must have been both direct and frequent , and the fact that Pantaenus went to India, Major, and to Mouziris becomes highly probable.
 
Vasco Da Gama did come to Calicut and not Goa.

So what????

At the time of synod of diamper(udayamperror)in 1599,there were 134 syrian christian Churches-and there was no parish system.That accounts for a lot of christians
 
No it is true,

Chennai/Madras was a small fishing village and of no importance to India before the Brits settled down there.

St.Thomas also could have visited India and he could have had a small number of followers but it was not important enough in India.

I feel all the colonial powers British,Portuguese,French,Dutch were all interested in conversions especially the Portuguese as they needed local allies and support,so they showed some random mountain and said St.Thomas came here,there is no proof for that.

In order to do converison,they needed a local reference and they invented St Thomas.

Thats my belief,

Because no Hindu history/Buddhist or Jain Literature talks about St.Thomas visit and he visited Chennai when he should have gone to Kanchipuram,the capital of the Pallavas.

But it is true that Kerala had a lot of contact with the Middle East/Rome/Istanbul,so if he came it is likely to be to Kerala but the Chennai story is bogus.
 
Vasco Da Gama did come to Calicut and not Goa.

Please take some time off and read the effing posts before the last. Vasco came to calicut....eventually Portuguese clerics followed. As a result native Christians suffered tremendously. The portugese aligned themselves with some of the local kings and systematically attempted to "rid the land" of "vermin". Portuguese archbishop Alexios Menezies went around rounding up native Christians and attempted to "eradicate" them by burning their churches, their texts and their leaders. Yet, we managed to fight back, survive and remain independent of the papacy.
 
So what????

At the time of synod of diamper(udayamperror)in 1599,there were 134 syrian christian Churches-and there was no parish system.That accounts for a lot of christians

yeah but i doubt if any existed in Travancore/Malabar.

Perhaps only in Cochin/Alleppy/Idukki/Pathanamthitta.
 
Please take some time off and read the effing posts before the last. Vasco came to calicut....eventually Portuguese clerics followed. As a result native Christians suffered tremendously. The portugese aligned themselves with some of the local kings and systematically attempted to "rid the land" of "vermin". Portuguese archbishop Alexios Menezies went around rounding up native Christians and attempted to "eradicate" them by burning their churches, their texts and their leaders. Yet, we managed to fight back, survive and remain independent of the papacy.

mate Menzes never burned Churches, and his effort was to bring east syriac christians(alleged as nestorians) to latin Catholicism.Catholicsm came to kerala via Mar Joseph Sulaqa,a chaldean catholic bishop in 1557.
also largest Nazrani denomination is Syro Malabar Catholic.
 
Please take some time off and read the effing posts before the last. Vasco came to calicut....eventually Portuguese clerics followed. As a result native Christians suffered tremendously. The portugese aligned themselves with some of the local kings and systematically attempted to "rid the land" of "vermin". Portuguese archbishop Alexios Menezies went around rounding up native Christians and attempted to "eradicate" them by burning their churches, their texts and their leaders. Yet, we managed to fight back, survive and remain independent of the papacy.

Sure,he hated the protestants and the hindus a little more.
 
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