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Kashmiris concerned by plans for Hindu satellite cities

It will be useless to discuss what Pakistan'S constitution says as Their most of the rules are decided by ISI they have Sharia and other fatwas from madrasas, which is superior than the court of law. My one and only point is, is there any proof that Pakistan has not changed the demography of PÖK? Or any article or rule in current decade, which prohibits the Migration since they have to deal with India and they need an official proof to show the world.

They have changed the name of a place and called it Gilgit, will it no more be considered as Part of Kashmir? They have No law, which stops any Pakistani to migrate into Kashmir.

For one moment we keep the UN resolution aside, but the basic argument of Pakistan ends with similar talk as of UN Resolution. Which is the plebiscite.

Now you are just grasping for straws, if Pakistan has sharia why is TTP fighting for? Do you not realize their main goal? :lol: Secondly fatwas are done by many madrasas but madrasas are independent from each other so their fatwas can hardly influence the whole nation. You are the one making the claim that the demographics have been changed so the burden of proof is on you, not us. Btw the UN only stated that the tribesmen had to return and that was in 1948, they have never stated that the demographics have been changed in any year after. This is usually claimed only by Indians. The Northern Areas were always called Gilgit-Baltistan that is their historical name, we did not change anything the people themselves call themselves Gilgiti or Balti.
 
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There is a member of this forum who is known for saying,"I was just on the line with ISPR....."
I am glad to see that he has company.

Buddy I have worked in Ministry of Defense a decade ago and I know well as I have many relative in the military too, I don't have to ask ISPR although I sometimes write to DG ISPR on twitter.
 
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Now you are just grasping for straws, if Pakistan has sharia why is TTP fighting for? Do you not realize their main goal? :lol: Secondly fatwas are done by many madrasas but madrasas are independent from each other so their fatwas can hardly influence the whole nation. You are the one making the claim that the demographics have been changed so the burden of proof is on you, not us. Btw the UN only stated that the tribesmen had to return and that was in 1948, they have never stated that the demographics have been changed in any year after. This is usually claimed only by Indians. The Northern Areas were always called Gilgit-Baltistan that is their historical name, we did not change anything the people themselves call themselves Gilgiti or Balti.

arre bhai, then quote me a law which prohibits any migration into Azad Kashmir. And do you think, we are sitting ducks unaware of the ground realities, how demography has been changed?
 
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so,now u r attempting the number game,is it?

see 10 people hate your views,only 3 like your views?

come Mr.JS,do u expect ,e to fall for such juvenile logic?

When the word logic occurs, I don't expect you to subscribe to the proposition that it describes. Neurosis is not rational.
 
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And you have access to intelligence reports that state what you think happened? Is this some kind of sick joke?

Zia can change sects? What on earth does that mean?

And what makes you think that the demographics of Azad Kashmir (so-called) was changed? Can be changed is different from was changed. Other than your over-active imagination, what do you have to back this rubbish?

When you'r are not aware of what I am talking about then it is meaningless to take the discussion further. You need to do your home work and then you may realize what I was referring to.

It requires common sense of how demography is changed. You are completely aware of what I am pointing to.

Example is Kashmir which we have itself.




If you want to discuss with me, remain on the topic, don'T bring unnecessary arguments please :).
 
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When you'r are not aware of what I am talking about then it is meaningless to take the discussion further. You need to do your home work and then you may realize what I was referring to.

It requires common sense of how demography is changed. You are completely aware of what I am pointing to.

Example is Kashmir which we have itself.




If you want to discuss with me, remain on the topic, don'T bring unnecessary arguments please :).

I am afraid that your imagined narrative is not anything which is worth debating.

Quote facts, not your own conjecture. Just because, in your own personal opinion, something is possible, that does not establish it as a fact. Common sense is not a substitute for facts. Your example is also ridiculous. The example relates to an illegal excision of a microscopic minority by pressure tactics and bullying. The Azad Kashmir is a situation where the majority is sought to be cowed down by a minority. How do the two compare?

Buddy I have worked in Ministry of Defense a decade ago and I know well as I have many relative in the military too, I don't have to ask ISPR although I sometimes write to DG ISPR on twitter.

As I said, now we have company for the other windbag.
 
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As I said, now we have company for the other windbag.

I don't talk fairy tales like many Indians about their machines, and I don't care what an Indian think because majority of them on PDF and on Indian defense forums don't even have basic education of ethics.

And I can only write to extent were it is not harmful for the nation although I had worked a decade ago.
 
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I am afraid that your imagined narrative is not anything which is worth debating.

Quote facts, not your own conjecture. Just because, in your own personal opinion, something is possible, that does not establish it as a fact. Common sense is not a substitute for facts. Your example is also ridiculous. The example relates to an illegal excision of a microscopic minority by pressure tactics and bullying. The Azad Kashmir is a situation where the majority is sought to be cowed down by a minority. How do the two compare?
first quote a law from pakistani constitution similar to article 370 which prohibits Migration.

secondly, you are not aware of sectarian violence in Azad Kashmir I suppose, please study that.

Common sense is indeed a substitute for facts which rise from common sense, which says Pakistan is master of demography change and psychological warfare through use of religion and sects which has created problem for non Muslims in kashmir.

lastly, you have changed the debate and given a new turn I am not here to know your knowledge of facts. I am here to say that, article 370 has in few ways Helped India.

When would these poor Kashmiris get their Self Determination rights !

According to Indian members @Joe Shearer such determination does not exist because it is a bilateral talks and no 3rd party like UN will interfere. So no more plebiscite.
 
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first quote a law from pakistani constitution similar to article 370 which prohibits Migration.

To continue from where I left off, Article 370 does not prohibit migration. Get your facts correct first.

It prevents law-making for J&K by the Indian Parliament. Lots of difference between what you think it says, and what it says. That's why it is good for you to read the original act for yourself before rushing into print.

Second, on both sides of the LOC, migration is forbidden by the same law: a 1927 local act of the principality of Kashmir which became part of the Ranvir Code. It remains valid in India, it remains valid in Pakistan. The Indian act of the J&K state assembly did not go through, since the lower house passed it but the upper house didn't, so the only act forbidding migration in India as in Pakistan is the 1927 act.

secondly, you are not aware of sectarian violence in Azad Kashmir I suppose, please study that.

I am aware that there is Shia-Sunni tension, just as there is Shia-Sunni tension throughout south Asia, including in Lucknow. What of it? There is nothing specific to Azad Kashmir.

Common sense is indeed a substitute for facts which rise from common sense, which says Pakistan is master of demography change and psychological warfare through use of religion and sects which has created problem for non Muslims in kashmir.

Once you have substituted 'common sense' for facts, you need not go further. Your views are worth nothing much more than that self-confessed level.

There was no question of Pakistan's mastery of demographic change and psychological warfare through use of religion and sects causing problems for non-Muslims in Kashmir. You may be referring to the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits. That was an act of prejudice and bigotry of the Kashmiri Muslims, inspired though it might have been by the Hurriyat.

It can hardly be equated to anything in the Pakistani side, where there was no similar Pandit population. Who were the victims of this masterly use of demographic change and psychological warfare, on the Pakistani side? If you are referring to the native Muslim population of Kashmir, that can refer to only one of three regions: the Mirpur fringe, which was always of different ethnic stock from the Valley, Gilgit and Baltistan, largely Shia, largely ethnically identical to the people of Kargil on the Indian side, and the formerly subordinate pockets such as Chitral, which were separated from Kashmir in 1947 itself by their rebellion against the Dogra Durbar. None of these have seen mass migration, by any accounts.

Apart from the vivid imagination of some armchair pundits who don't have a clue as to actual conditions prevailing, what is this demographic change you are referring to?


You would do very well if you would first learn what Article 370 is, in the first place. Otherwise for you to argue that it does India various good things does seem slightly strange.

According to Indian members @Joe Shearer such determination does not exist because it is a bilateral talks and no 3rd party like UN will interfere. So no more plebiscite.

Yes, that is correct.
 
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To continue from where I left off, Article 370 does not prohibit migration. Get your facts correct first.

It prevents law-making for J&K by the Indian Parliament. Lots of difference between what you think it says, and what it says. That's why it is good for you to read the original act for yourself before rushing into print.

Second, on both sides of the LOC, migration is forbidden by the same law: a 1927 local act of the principality of Kashmir which became part of the Ranvir Code. It remains valid in India, it remains valid in Pakistan. The Indian act of the J&K state assembly did not go through, since the lower house passed it but the upper house didn't, so the only act forbidding migration in India as in Pakistan is the 1927 act.



I am aware that there is Shia-Sunni tension, just as there is Shia-Sunni tension throughout south Asia, including in Lucknow. What of it? There is nothing specific to Azad Kashmir.



Once you have substituted 'common sense' for facts, you need not go further. Your views are worth nothing much more than that self-confessed level.

There was no question of Pakistan's mastery of demographic change and psychological warfare through use of religion and sects causing problems for non-Muslims in Kashmir. You may be referring to the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits. That was an act of prejudice and bigotry of the Kashmiri Muslims, inspired though it might have been by the Hurriyat.

It can hardly be equated to anything in the Pakistani side, where there was no similar Pandit population. Who were the victims of this masterly use of demographic change and psychological warfare, on the Pakistani side? If you are referring to the native Muslim population of Kashmir, that can refer to only one of three regions: the Mirpur fringe, which was always of different ethnic stock from the Valley, Gilgit and Baltistan, largely Shia, largely ethnically identical to the people of Kargil on the Indian side, and the formerly subordinate pockets such as Chitral, which were separated from Kashmir in 1947 itself by their rebellion against the Dogra Durbar. None of these have seen mass migration, by any accounts.

Apart from the vivid imagination of some armchair pundits who don't have a clue as to actual conditions prevailing, what is this demographic change you are referring to?


You would do very well if you would first learn what Article 370 is, in the first place. Otherwise for you to argue that it does India various good things does seem slightly strange.



Yes, that is correct.

1) yes it does, you cannot buy land in Kashmir, and this is why Amarnath conflict happened, Because as per the article you need permission from state government to buy a land in Kashmir. Apart from Military, defence and communication other decision need state permission. As per the JandK constitution.

2) This kind of autonomy is given by article 370.




Note: My point was Pakistan has changed the demography of Azad Kashmir. But because India has a law, and follows its law under A370, India cannot change the demography as it does not allow. Pakistan can change because there is no such law in Pakistani constitution, if there is then please quote. So any such entertainment of plebiscite by Pakistan cannot be entertained. You have been talking things from here and there but not on what I said.

This is the 3rd day I have been asking for such law, but none can furnish. Very sad LOL.
 
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1) yes it does, you cannot buy land in Kashmir, and this is why Amarnath conflict happened, Because as per the article you need permission from state government to buy a land in Kashmir. Apart from Military, defence and communication other decision need state permission. As per the JandK constitution.

No, it does not. You cannot buy land in conflict, but it has nothing to do with Article 370. Article 370 says that you cannot change J&K laws without the J&K assembly. Not even the Chief Minister and the Cabinet of J&K can do this.

The article does not require permission from the state government to buy land in Kashmir.

It does require all decisions outside defence and communications to be decisions made by the J&K assembly. That's all it does.

2) This kind of autonomy is given by article 370.

The autonomy given by Article 370 nowhere mentions ownership of land. It mentions legislation outside three restricted subjects. Such legislation in J&K includes ownership of land. That is the only way this article is relevant here.

3) I am asking for similar kind of article in Pakistani Constitution because I could not find one.

There is no similar kind of article in the Pakistani constitution and that is irrelevant, because neither of these would govern ownership of land anyway.

4) I am not here to justify Pakistani Occupation which you are.

I do not justify the Pakistani constitution. However, I do justify facts. You should get hold of the facts. It is a useful thing to do.

5) You have read the books, but they don't work when you deal with Pakistan!

You should also learn to read books.

That normally comes before dealing with Pakistan, not after.

6) The people in Azad Kashmir are pro Pakistani and will allow change in demography for anti Indian activities ' off the record'

And they have whispered this into your little pearly pink ears, no doubt. What a 420 you are.

7) If things were told open about change in demography and such psychological warfare, there was no need of ISI and RAW.

RAW does changes in demography? Ask some Martian on PDF. It doesn't.

8) Shia - Sunni, is an example of change in sect, if that can happen, then regionalism too.

What are you talking about? How is Shia-Sunni an example of change in sect?

9) Even after shimla pact, the pakistan is in favor of plebiscite. kya karloge bhai tum? Another kargil or you will give Kashmir to Pakistan?

Why not let them have an opinion? How does it affect the situation on the ground?

10) Not just Pakistan but China also plays important role.

No doubt.

Have you been reading books in secret?

11) Hurriyat is morally and militarily supported by ISI.

You have been reading books in secret.

How wonderful to know that you have caught up with the rest of the world.

12) May be you'r not much aware of Psychological warfare as you didn't give attention to my previous post where I told you to do your home work better this time. Such things need common sense, which you want as proof. Lol

Ah, no, I am not much aware of psychological warfare. Not to the extent of an expert like you.

I like your approach of using common sense rather than facts.

Common sense tells me that you are a Martian.
 
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No, it does not. You cannot buy land in conflict, but it has nothing to do with Article 370. Article 370 says that you cannot change J&K laws without the J&K assembly. Not even the Chief Minister and the Cabinet of J&K can do this.

The article does not require permission from the state government to buy land in Kashmir.

It does require all decisions outside defence and communications to be decisions made by the J&K assembly. That's all it does.



The autonomy given by Article 370 nowhere mentions ownership of land. It mentions legislation outside three restricted subjects. Such legislation in J&K includes ownership of land. That is the only way this article is relevant here.



There is no similar kind of article in the Pakistani constitution and that is irrelevant, because neither of these would govern ownership of land anyway.



I do not justify the Pakistani constitution. However, I do justify facts. You should get hold of the facts. It is a useful thing to do.



You should also learn to read books.

That normally comes before dealing with Pakistan, not after.



And they have whispered this into your little pearly pink ears, no doubt. What a 420 you are.



RAW does changes in demography? Ask some Martian on PDF. It doesn't.



What are you talking about? How is Shia-Sunni an example of change in sect?



Why not let them have an opinion? How does it affect the situation on the ground?



No doubt.

Have you been reading books in secret?



You have been reading books in secret.

How wonderful to know that you have caught up with the rest of the world.



Ah, no, I am not much aware of psychological warfare. Not to the extent of an expert like you.

I like your approach of using common sense rather than facts.

Common sense tells me that you are a Martian.

please read my post again I have made it short LOL. what ever you are discussing is useless, because My points were different, you gave them a new shape. But I will definitely quote these ones too. Because you are good in misunderstandings the points.
 
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first quote a law from pakistani constitution similar to article 370 which prohibits Migration.

secondly, you are not aware of sectarian violence in Azad Kashmir I suppose, please study that.

Common sense is indeed a substitute for facts which rise from common sense, which says Pakistan is master of demography change and psychological warfare through use of religion and sects which has created problem for non Muslims in kashmir.

lastly, you have changed the debate and given a new turn I am not here to know your knowledge of facts. I am here to say that, article 370 has in few ways Helped India.



According to Indian members @Joe Shearer such determination does not exist because it is a bilateral talks and no 3rd party like UN will interfere. So no more plebiscite.

There is no sectarian violence in Azad Kashmir as the people there are all Sunnis, also Gilgit is all Shia but there have been no reports of attacks in gilgit based on sectarian lines, the last attack I heard of was on those tourists in the mountains.

As for the law prohibiting settlement I am not sure I will have to look for it but I know settlements are banned and other Pakistanis can corroborate.
 
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No, it does not. You cannot buy land in conflict, but it has nothing to do with Article 370. Article 370 says that you cannot change J&K laws without the J&K assembly.

That's the whole point here. Right now, the law doesn't allow out siders to buy a land or not even a Kashmiri girl can't transfer her own property to her kids\Husband if she marry anyone out side of J&K. If they abolish A 370, then they can remove that law.
 
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