Kashmiri Pundit : What was done to them by Kashmiri Muslims

[dabong1]

To my country men irrespective of caste creed religion ethnicity i will always feel pain when they are targetted. If they do activities which hurts my country i will call them traitors as simple as that. Regarding outsiders who come in to my country to fight the state in the name of our internal conflict why shouldn't i call them whatever i want??

Why do u get offended when i talk of outsiders?? please explain??

Its all a matter of perception.

1.Kashmiris dont class themselves as indian and see you as an occupation force.....so when you talk of " activities which hurt my country" i agree but it does not cover the kashmiris as they are not indian and thus not countrymen.

2.When you say "outsiders who come in to my country to fight".... well first of all its not your country and second if you want "outsiders" to leave then why dont you indians who are "outsiders" to the kashmiris also leave and we make this a straight between the kashmiri people.
You bring "hindu" soilders to the fight from all over india so the muslims can do the same.

3.You call it a "internal conflict" thus showing your total lack of understanding of the issue.

Why do u get offended when i talk of outsiders?? please explain??

You want to class the outsiders as anyone who is not from kashmir ,so going off that logic the same applies to the indians.....if your not from kashmir please go home.
The majority of the indian army fighting is not born and bred in kashmir.

exactly, they were living together and they got the shock of their lives and a dagger into their backs,

That being as simplistic as me saying that the muslim kashmirs where "shocked" and felt like they had been "knifed in the back" when the kashmiri hindus started to "collaborate" with the indian army.

where are you from exactly?

What has that got to do with anything?

 

[indushek]

Its all a matter of perception.

1.Kashmiris dont class themselves as indian and see you as an occupation force.....so when you talk of " activities which hurt my country" i agree but it does not cover the kashmiris as they are not indian and thus not countrymen.

2.When you say "outsiders who come in to my country to fight".... well first of all its not your country and second if you want "outsiders" to leave then why dont you indians who are "outsiders" to the kashmiris also leave and we make this a straight between the kashmiri people.
You bring "hindu" soilders to the fight from all over india so the muslims can do the same.

3.You call it a "internal conflict" thus showing your total lack of understanding of the issue.



You want to class the outsiders as anyone who is not from kashmir ,so going off that logic the same applies to the indians.....if your not from kashmir please go home.
The majority of the indian army fighting is not born and bred in kashmir.

There is a reason why i call it internal conflict, once the gazis attacked and the IA moved in and whatever percentage kashmir both retained their respective parts.

Those parts became 'ours', if we reverse the situation and assume that similar incidents happened in *** what would your reaction be?? would u not call the outsiders coming in to fight even worst words than i used??

The question of is Kashmir ours or not doesn't arise here as it is already being administered by us and whatever the issue about its accession is to be settled through official channels diplomatically or even war but 'openly' by the Pakistani State.

Sending rented fighters to mask the backing doesn't take away their involvement and these rented fighters are nothing but 'rabid dogs'. I feel that i understand the situation perfectly but your entitled to your opinion about my understanding of situation or rather the lack of it.

 

[illusion8]

Its all a matter of perception.

1.Kashmiris dont class themselves as indian and see you as an occupation force.....so when you talk of " activities which hurt my country" i agree but it does not cover the kashmiris as they are not indian and thus not countrymen.

2.When you say "outsiders who come in to my country to fight".... well first of all its not your country and second if you want "outsiders" to leave then why dont you indians who are "outsiders" to the kashmiris also leave and we make this a straight between the kashmiri people.
You bring "hindu" soilders to the fight from all over india so the muslims can do the same.

3.You call it a "internal conflict" thus showing your total lack of understanding of the issue.



You want to class the outsiders as anyone who is not from kashmir ,so going off that logic the same applies to the indians.....if your not from kashmir please go home.
The majority of the indian army fighting is not born and bred in kashmir.



That being as simplistic as me saying that the muslim kashmirs where "shocked" and felt like they had been "knifed in the back" when the kashmiri hindus started to "collaborate" with the indian army.







What has that got to do with anything?

This thread is about Kashmiri Pandits who think themselves as Indians, I don't really care what the Muslims of Kashmir think, and the reason for me asking about your nationality is...the plight of the KP and what they went through is an internal matter and doesn't concern anyone else, and I am not inclined to get into a discussion about Kashmiri Muslims or their thoughts with a Pakistani or Bangladeshi because again it's an internal matter as it concerns what happened within Indian administered land and the discussion will go wayward without logic.

 

[Screambowl]

Indian history is replete with mistakes, and we learn as we go along. In India justice is a slow process but people don't forget easily and they get their due eventually. The KP's will too. As for hoildaying in Kashmir - I think Pakistan based terrorists are trying their darnedest to start the 90's style insurgency in Kashmir again - the next 2 years would be crucial and the Indian forces have a difficult task on their hands of putting down the terrorists. Two policemen were killed by terrorists in Kupwara yesterday after 28 years - this signals the desperate attempts by Pakistan to start terror in Pakistan..

If India has learnt something from the last time round we need some permanent solution to stop these terrorists - protecting and reactive actions wont help and if the KP's are rehabilitated now - they will fall prey again to these terrorists and to the Kashmiri Muslims. They can only be sent back to their home once the threat is removed completely and our sickular congi's are not capable enough to do that.

without Internal support it is not possible. The internal support has to be broken down. Basically the youth has been motivated on the paths of the fake Jehad do or die type mental condition. '' We will die but we will not allow Indian administration''. The only solution is one more unfair election in Kashmir. This sounds absurd but if you think deep it will give you out put. The situation pre 2014 should be observed carefully.

 

[illusion8]

without Internal support it is not possible. The internal support has to be broken down. Basically the youth has been motivated on the paths of the fake Jehad do or die type mental condition. '' We will die but we will not surrender''. The only solution is one more unfair election in Kashmir. This sounds absurd but if you think deep it will give you out put. The situation pre 2014 should be observed carefully.

@Screambowl, one needs to make at least a one week trip to Kashmir, stay there and mingle with the locals - you will realize that they are very simple, respectful loving people, it's truly paradise on earth not only by location but by way of the people too. The have immense respect for humans from any nationality - there is as you say internal radical elements but they are few and are distant from the average kashmiri. Kashmir solution is an easy solution if our neighbor was not in the picture. What they have brought to the region is what they brought to Afghanistan in the 90's - that is death and destruction and radicalization. There is no easy solution because of this.

 

[Screambowl]

@Screambowl, one needs to make at least a one week trip to Kashmir, stay there and mingle with the locals - you will realize that they are very simple, respectful loving people, it's truly paradise on earth not only by location but by way of the people too. The have immense respect for humans from any nationality - there is as you say internal radical elements but they are few and are distant from the average kashmiri. Kashmir solution is an easy solution if our neighbor was not in the picture. What they have brought to the region is what they brought to Afghanistan in the 90's - that is death and destruction and radicalization. There is no easy solution because of this.

when I say about youths being brainwashed I do not mean every youth. But the point is, message from across the border is given to them that go ahead, we are with you. And for this reason you see terrorists crossing the LOC to infiltrate into kashmir to keep up the hopes. More over If you remember the Amarnath Trust case, huge bawal was created and more than hundred thousand of Kashmiris came on Street to stop this transfer. It was purely political drama but involvement of locals in that huge amount show that why so much intolerance?

 

[illusion8]

when I say about youths being brainwashed I do not mean every youth. But the point is, message from across the border is given to them that go ahead, we are with you. And for this reason you see terrorists crossing the LOC to infiltrate into kashmir to keep up the hopes. More over If you remember the Amarnath Trust case, huge bawal was created and more than hundred thousand of Kashmiris came on Street to stop this transfer. It was purely political drama but involvement of locals in that huge amount show that why so much intolerance?

As I said they are simple minded folks and easily led astray, there's a lot of propaganda that's doing to the rounds since decades and all these killings and rapes or tortures are propaganda pieces. I am not saying it does not happen but not to the extent that's propagated. Brainwashing them is what happens by few extremist elements.

There is no direct solution for Kashmir as such, it's complicated, India has Muslims all over in other states and Muslims in 1947 declared that they cannot co exist with Hindu's and a separate state was formed. But the Muslims who stayed back - stayed back out of their own will, now if a Kashmir Muslims proclaim that they do not want to be part of India because they are Muslims then the Indian Muslims in other states have a problem. It simply goes both ways - when Muslims declare that they cannot co- exist with Hindu's why should Hindu's want to co-exist with Muslims? Though that will not cross most Hindu's minds but they won't be at fault if they think in those lines.

Muslims of India are not with the Kashmiri Muslims - at least the saner ones are not. Separation or autonomy will divide the Muslims yet again and will create problems between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India. Kashmiri's have started to understand this also they are aware of the condition of Muslims in Pakistan - it's not exactly rosy across the border. Plus Kashmiri's are communally not sectarian - they are united may it be Shia's or Sunni's or other sects and the discrimination and the killings of minority sects across the border is not hidden from them.

At best they are asking for autonomy within the state, which is definitely workable if the Muslims of India agree - and they do not agree to it.

 

[dabong1]

Sending rented fighters to mask the backing doesn't take away their involvement

100% pakistan backs the freedom fight with weapons and men and am pretty they will carry on doing so for as long as kashmir is under occupation....just like you india backed hindu groups (LTTE) and what about the Mukti Bahini?
Whats there to mask?

and these rented fighters are nothing but 'rabid dogs'.

Ooh so the indian army doesnt get paid?...they fight for free?
You could say the same about the indian army in kashmir......"rented rabid dogs hired to murder and oppress".
Like i said before lay off the "rabid dog" line.

I feel that i understand the situation perfectly but your entitled to your opinion about my understanding of situation or rather the lack of it.

I do understand the situation but i think that are being inflexible when it comes to kashmir.

 

[dabong1]

This thread is about Kashmiri Pandits who think themselves as Indians, I don't really care what the Muslims of Kashmir think,

Fair enough.

and the reason for me asking about your nationality is...the plight of the KP and what they went through is an internal matter and doesn't concern anyone else, and I am not inclined to get into a discussion about Kashmiri Muslims or their thoughts with a Pakistani or Bangladeshi because again it's an internal matter as it concerns what happened within Indian administered land and the discussion will go wayward without logic.

Well if you really want to know my family is from kashmir both sides of the LOC.
You seem not to want to discuss anything put a narrow agenda of what the hindu kashmiris think without putting it into context.
Yeah the kashmiri hindus suffered violence at the hands of fighters the same way the kashmiri muslims did at the hands of the indian army.
Both groups where made refugees and hope one day there will be peace and all can go back to there homeland but that can only happen once you move from your stated position.The pakistanis are willing to move away from "UN plebiscite" and now india nedd to take a step and do a similiar gesture and step away from "kashmir integral part of india" for there to be some sort of sincere and honest bilateral agreement.

 

[dabong1]

As I said they are simple minded folks and easily led astray, there's a lot of propaganda that's doing to the rounds since decades and all these killings and rapes or tortures are propaganda pieces. I am not saying it does not happen but not to the extent that's propagated. Brainwashing them is what happens by few extremist elements.

I bet you dont take the same line when it comes to the kashmiri fighters......that the majority of the stories you hear are untrue and state propaganda....yaeh theres are few bad apples in the fighters but the majority are okay?
Just excuse the excess.

There is no direct solution for Kashmir as such, it's complicated, India has Muslims all over in other states and Muslims in 1947 declared that they cannot co exist with Hindu's and a separate state was formed. But the Muslims who stayed back - stayed back out of their own will, now if a Kashmir Muslims proclaim that they do not want to be part of India because they are Muslims then the Indian Muslims in other states have a problem. It simply goes both ways - when Muslims declare that they cannot co- exist with Hindu's why should Hindu's want to co-exist with Muslims? Though that will not cross most Hindu's minds but they won't be at fault if they think in those lines.

Muslims of India are not with the Kashmiri Muslims - at least the saner ones are not. Separation or autonomy will divide the Muslims yet again and will create problems between Hindus and Muslims in other parts of India. Kashmiri's have started to understand this also they are aware of the condition of Muslims in Pakistan - it's not exactly rosy across the border. Plus Kashmiri's are communally not sectarian - they are united may it be Shia's or Sunni's or other sects and the discrimination and the killings of minority sects across the border is not hidden from them.

At best they are asking for autonomy within the state, which is definitely workable if the Muslims of India agree - and they do not agree to it.

You keep forgetting that the muslims of india got a choice to stay or go to pakistan...the kashmiris never got that that choice even after nehru promised under the UN.
The one thing that you keep missing is that the majority muslim areas would go to pakistan under the partition,going off that logic wher do you think kashmir would go?

 

[illusion8]

Fair enough.




Well if you really want to know my family is from kashmir both sides of the LOC.
You seem not to want to discuss anything put a narrow agenda of what the hindu kashmiris think without putting it into context.
Yeah the kashmiri hindus suffered violence at the hands of fighters the same way the kashmiri muslims did at the hands of the indian army.
Both groups where made refugees and hope one day there will be peace and all can go back to there homeland but that can only happen once you move from your stated position.The pakistanis are willing to move away from "UN plebiscite" and now india nedd to take a step and do a similiar gesture and step away from "kashmir integral part of india" for there to be some sort of sincere and honest bilateral agreement.

That's fair enough.
The Kashmiri Muslims have a right to think whatever they desire, I would say that the Indian forces in Kashmir were rather forced in by situations like what happened in 48, 89 or Kargil or the continuous violence and insurgency that pervades in Kashmir I also believe that Kashmir is going back to normal and there is serious rethink of withdrawal of AFSPA and the Indian troops from Kashmir - but the call from the TTP, LET and other militant organizations for renewal of violence and terror in Kashmir and the increase in cross border infiltration and a possible repeat of what happened in 89 after the Soviets quit from Afghanistan may repeat itself again in the near future and we will see a large influx of Jihaadi's pushed into Kashmir by our neighbors. Kashmiri's will be without protection and their protection falls on the shoulders of Indian troops - so I don't predict any change in the security situation of Kashmir in the near future.

As I stated in my earlier post, the sensitivities of Indian Muslims should also be factored in the context of Kashmiri Muslims demanding a separation just because they are a Muslim majority, any insensitivity will only alienate the Indian Muslim further.

 

[illusion8]

I bet you dont take the same line when it comes to the kashmiri fighters......that the majority of the stories you hear are untrue and state propaganda....yaeh theres are few bad apples in the fighters but the majority are okay?
Just excuse the excess.



You keep forgetting that the muslims of india got a choice to stay or go to pakistan...the kashmiris never got that that choice even after nehru promised under the UN.
The one thing that you keep missing is that the majority muslim areas would go to pakistan under the partition,going off that logic wher do you think kashmir would go?

Kashmiri land was acceded to India so India definitely has a right to it, no one can deny that, Kashmiri rulers never acceded to Pakistan ever, and as for the sensitivities of Muslims - then all Indian Muslims all 175 million of them are asking the Kashmiri's to change their mindset. I know that they are thinking on the lines of autonomy and an open border and not a complete break from India and Pakistan.

 

[Screambowl]

Fair enough.




Well if you really want to know my family is from kashmir both sides of the LOC.
You seem not to want to discuss anything put a narrow agenda of what the hindu kashmiris think without putting it into context.
Yeah the kashmiri hindus suffered violence at the hands of fighters the same way the kashmiri muslims did at the hands of the indian army.
Both groups where made refugees and hope one day there will be peace and all can go back to there homeland but that can only happen once you move from your stated position.The pakistanis are willing to move away from "UN plebiscite" and now india nedd to take a step and do a similiar gesture and step away from "kashmir integral part of india" for there to be some sort of sincere and honest bilateral agreement.

This is not the right fact. The Military was sent after 1989 unrest when KPs were forced to leave. After 1965 and Before 1989 military was at borders at their posts.

 

[Screambowl]

You keep forgetting that the muslims of india got a choice to stay or go to pakistan...the kashmiris never got that that choice even after nehru promised under the UN.
The one thing that you keep missing is that the majority muslim areas would go to pakistan under the partition,going off that logic wher do you think kashmir would go?

First of all by term 'Kashmiri' it doest not mean only Muslims. The KPs and Buddhist have equal right to decide where they want to stay and with which administration. Secondly your fact about not giving chance to Kashmiris is again wrong. Kashmir was to be acceded to Pakistan but due to invasion by Pakistan led tribes, 'Mujahideens', the Maharaja changed the decision fearing all non Muslims would be slaughtered by them or converted or their women will fall prey and since then Indian Military stayed there at border.


PS: let us not shift to that and remain on topic which is strictly about Kashmiri Pandits and their rights and justice to them.

 

[indushek]

100% pakistan backs the freedom fight with weapons and men and am pretty they will carry on doing so for as long as kashmir is under occupation....just like you india backed hindu groups (LTTE) and what about the Mukti Bahini?
Whats there to mask?



Ooh so the indian army doesnt get paid?...they fight for free?
You could say the same about the indian army in kashmir......"rented rabid dogs hired to murder and oppress".
Like i said before lay off the "rabid dog" line.



I do understand the situation but i think that are being inflexible when it comes to kashmir.

I respect soldiers of any country so i wouldn't call names to any army either Indian or Pakistani or any others.

All the professional armies in the world are paid but there is a difference between professional and 'soldiers of fortune'kind.

The second are nothing but rabid dogs. I think i am flexible on Kashmir or for that matter any Indian till the topic is not its secession from us.