dabong1
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Its not me that keeps bleating on about being democratic or having the largest democracy in the world.
Kashmir The Freedom of Struggle
- Thread starter A.Rahman
- Start date
Its not me that keeps bleating on about being democratic or having the largest democracy in the world.
What you saying is nothing different from the current state of affairs bar some bells and whistle. Pakistan keeps it's kashmir and India keeps it's. Both sides have rights to vote in the national elections already. So what is the difference?
And what you saying is totally opposite to "the demands" of choosing through votes. What would Pakistan part of Kashmir vote for Pakistan when India part of Kashmir would vote for independence?
As far as joint goverance is considered why do you think India says it is impractical?
Who is gonna provide funds for Kashmir day to day job? What makes it think India and Pakistan will not exchanges charges over either side not paying their share.
How would be share the taxes be divided? How would the earnings be divided?
How would the security be provided. Observe India considers militant infiltration as the stumbling block. What can prevent some of the Lal-Masjid kind coming to Kashmir causing the same kind of trouble in Srinagar? who will be responsible for carrying out a counter operation? If India did what is gonna prevent elements in Pakistan screaming on "anti-Muslim" operation by Hindu India etc etc etc....
Just because both countries should feel "victorious", an impractical solution cannot be implemented.
And just because India being stronger party does not mean it should make more concession. Just as Pakistan has it's national interest,India has it's national interest as well. Just as Pakistan is not there to further India's interest,similarly India isn't there to further Pakistan's interest. Simple as that.
Adux
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Oh I am saying adhere by UN resolution, but lets adhere it FULLY, lets not be selective about what you would like and what not, You will be suprised
dabong1
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dabong1
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I said what i did keeping in mind what the indians and pakistanis want,i could have said let the indian/pak army leave kashmir under a UN force and have a referendum in kashmir and honour the election results,would the indian/pak govt allow this,i doubt it.
I am trying to "keep it real" and propose things that are acceptable to all three parties,its called a compromise.
You do not mention Jammu, why would they vote to join to india.
I am telling you what i think the outcome of a seperate election in the valley,jammu and pak kashmir would be.
If you think the indian govt will allow kashmir to have a vote under the UN then great.
Any solution to the kashmir problem that does not suit india but would be great for the peace process is always "impractical".
Kashmir has got enough that it does not need any help from india or pakistan,so all your problems about tax,providing funds,exchanging charges and dividing earnings are not really a problem.
The kashmir police force would take care of law and order which would be made up of all the faiths of kashmir.
I think that answers your question about "anti-Muslim" operation by Hindu India or vice versa
As i said before any solution is always "impractical" .
bhangra12345
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Well if any solution today is impractical, propose a solution which is practical or wait till atleast one of the solutions become practical.
I prefer the second, so I will
and 
intruder
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dabong1
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Well if any solution today is impractical, propose a solution which is practical or wait till atleast one of the solutions become practical.
I prefer the second, so I will
Of course you would prefer the second especially the bit that says WAIT.
dabong1
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do not want any of your land.Just want kashmir
alamgir
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Last Updated: Saturday, 11 August 2007, 13:28 GMT 14:28 UK
Huge fire at Kashmir army depot
Shells and splinters ripped through the area once the fire began
Thousands of Kashmiri villagers have been evacuated after a huge fire broke out at an Indian army ammunition depot, injuring at least 25 people.
A state of emergency has been declared and camps have been set up for the evacuees from the surrounding villages.
The area, in Anantnag district, was rocked by rapid explosions and blanketed by a massive plume of smoke.
An Indian defence ministry spokesman has ruled out sabotage or an attack by militants as the cause of the blaze.
Despite this, at least three Kashmiri separatist groups have said they started the fire.
The fire broke out in an ammunition depot at Khandroo near Achkdal.
Explosions have occurred regularly since the blaze began and the authorities say at least 13 villages have been evacuated, while people in many other villages have fled in panic.
The authorities have set up at least four relief camps for the affected people. Police have also blocked all roads leading to the ammunition depot.
About 700,000 Indian soldiers are stationed in Kashmir to combat several militant groups.
Kashmir is claimed by both Pakistan and India. They have fought two wars over Kashmir since independence.
www.bbc.co.uk
Huge fire at Kashmir army depot
Shells and splinters ripped through the area once the fire began
Thousands of Kashmiri villagers have been evacuated after a huge fire broke out at an Indian army ammunition depot, injuring at least 25 people.
A state of emergency has been declared and camps have been set up for the evacuees from the surrounding villages.
The area, in Anantnag district, was rocked by rapid explosions and blanketed by a massive plume of smoke.
An Indian defence ministry spokesman has ruled out sabotage or an attack by militants as the cause of the blaze.
Despite this, at least three Kashmiri separatist groups have said they started the fire.
The fire broke out in an ammunition depot at Khandroo near Achkdal.
Explosions have occurred regularly since the blaze began and the authorities say at least 13 villages have been evacuated, while people in many other villages have fled in panic.
The authorities have set up at least four relief camps for the affected people. Police have also blocked all roads leading to the ammunition depot.
About 700,000 Indian soldiers are stationed in Kashmir to combat several militant groups.
Kashmir is claimed by both Pakistan and India. They have fought two wars over Kashmir since independence.
www.bbc.co.uk
Kashmiris want Peace, Azadi
by Amit Chakraborty
Almost all Srinagar residents want peace, azadi, and an end to the authoritarianism of Indian forces. AMIT CHAKRABORTY, who observed the recently-concluded elections in J&K, explains why the polls were a farce, and how the will of the people is being muzzled
The results of the Jammu & Kashmir assembly election were declared almost a fortnight back. But as yet the state government could not come into being. The major parties like NC, PDP and Congress, none having the absolute majority in terms of seats won under their banner; claim that they have the mandate from the people of Jammu & Kashmir to form the government. Yet despite their claims, they all know in their hearts that it is far from the reality.
During the third and fourth phase of election, I had the opportunity to be a watcher in the election arena as a member of the team of 'independent election observers' formed by the J&K Coalition for Civil Society. During my stay in Srinagar, for more than a week, I conducted a survey on the basis of random sampling spread over all the 10 constituencies of Srinagar district, commensurate with the demographic composition of the population of Srinagar district as per the 2001 Census. The result that I gathered diminishes the claims of all the frontrunners, staking their claims to form the government, to naught. In Srinagar the NC enjoys the support of only 2.54 per cent of the voting population (i.e., people over the age of 18). The figures for Congress and PDP are respectively 1.70 and 0.85 per cent only.
How can that be when the establishment claimed that average polling in the J&K election was over 42 per cent and these major political parties mostly shared the votes polled? Well, in Srinagar district, 78 per cent of the population is urban. Because of media and election observers' activism, the urban voters could not be herded to polling booths to cast their votes.
But as has been reported about rural voters of Srinagar, and as we have witnessed ourselves in rural areas of Anantnag and Banihal Tehsil of Doda district, the voters were really made to vote by the Rashtriya Rifle forces. They used to enter the village on the pretext that they would provide security to the voting people against the alleged threat of the militants opposing the election. But it was the precise task of the RR personnel to herd people to the polling booth under the threat that if they could not show the indelible ink mark on their fingers they would have to face the music. We came across many people more interested in getting the mark on their fingers than in casting in votes. Thus the high polling percentage was reached. However, for Srinagar district, especially in the city area, even official records showed that the voter turnout was far below the general average.
Why were the people so averse to the election process? Of those interviewed for our survey, 89.84 per cent said the Assembly election was not the true process of choosing the representatives of peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. Only 6.78 per cent looked at the election in a positive manner and 5.08 per cent had any expectations from the electoral process.
Are not the people of Srinagar aware of the problems of Jammu & Kashmir? With the bruised heart and scar all over their body resulting from army and militants' excesses how can they close their eyes away from the day-to-day realities! To conduct the survey I went from place to place to meet the people in all the 10 constituencies of the district of Srinagar, including high-risk security zone areas. Nowhere was my identity challenged as I am from "India". But that of Gawhar Amin, a student from Kashmir University accompanying me through the survey exercise, was challenged on almost all occasions and frisked. Not was not I but he who was treated as an alien in his own land.
The Indian army picked up Shakeela Banno's husband some three years back. He is one in the list of disappeared persons running into thousands. She is hoping against hope for his return. Her husband was an auto driver. Before his disappearance, the couple led four years of conjugal life and had four children. Shakeela manages to maintain the family by fixing wrappers on the chocolates of the local vendors and labouring for household work door to door. When we asked her about the root cause of the problems of J&K she had hardly opined that it was the 'authoritarian, undemocratic and oppressive role of the Indian Government' in Jammu & Kashmir, before bursting into tears, murmuring, "all these things now bear no meaning in my life". However, 25.42 per cent of the people interviewed also think in Shakeela's way. Of the rest, 22.03 per cent feel that 'it is the dispute between India and Pakistan over the possession of J&K'.' Another 26.27 per cent feel that the root cause is the 'contradiction between aspirations of the peoples of J&K and the possessive attitude of Indian government' while 17.80 per cent think that 'poverty, unemployment and illiteracy are the root cause of J&K problem'.
It is interesting to note that not even all the Hindus (Kashmiri Pandits) interviewed (4.24 per cent) consider 'subversive activities being perpetrated at the behest of Pakistan' as the root cause. Only 2.54 per cent of the total people interviewed think in that way.
How do Kashmiris believe the 'peace, prosperity and progress of J&K will be ensured and the democratic right of its people will be guaranteed'? Only 5.07 per cent consider merger with Pakistan as the solution, while 9.32 per cent believe the state should remain an integral part of India. But the vast majority - 83.90 per cent - look forward to sovereign and independent state of Jammu and Kashmir as the only solution.
What do these people mean by independence or 'Azadi'? A six-year-old boy from Safapora village in Baramulla district elucidated the term very nicely in his mother tongue. He said, "Azadi is the situation where there will be no military or militants, where the houses are not burnt, people are not killed and the women are not molested ('Aauraton ka sath badsaluki nehi hoti')". But to others, Azadi has a different meaning. The infuriated young people of Danwhadpora village in Kokernag constituency in the district of Anantnag were chanting slogans right before us when we went there to observe polling: "Hum chahtehen Azadi, Kashmir banega Pakistan".
It is the total alienation of the common people from the Indian state that has made the slogan of Azadi so popular. One of our friends, a lawyer from Srinagar said, "Set aside Pakistan, if there will be a cricket match between India and Israel, the No.1 enemy of the Muslim world, the people of Kashmir will support Israel, but not India". Such is the alienation!
The vast majority of the people (almost 90 per cent) are against partitioning Kashmir between India and Pakistan as per the actual Line of Control or of transferring Muslim majority areas to Pakistan while integrating the Hindu majority areas with India. An even larger segment - 91.53 per cent - of the people interviewed abhor the path of militancy or war as a solution of the Kashmir problem.
They are in favour of a peaceful movement and dialogue and they feel that the dialogue should be between governments of India, Pakistan and the peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. But interestingly, 57.63 per cent of the people interviewed have no faith in any of the political organisations active in Kashmir including the Hurriyat Conference. Hurriyat Conference enjoys the support of 35.59% of Srinagar residents who were interviewed. The majority of those surveyed opposed the election, as did Hurriyat; a majority of the people are also in favour of dialogue, as is Hurriyat. Even then Hurriyat does not enjoy majority support.
The problem is that Hurriyat is not a single political entity but a conglomeration of 23 political entities. Seven of them, as the executive members of the Conference, wield maximum control over the organisation. The political agenda of all these political outfits are not much particular and clear before the common people. When 83.90 per cent of the people are in favour of azadi, five of the seven executives of Hurriyat are in favour of merging with Pakistan. Though they have some faith in Hurriyat but the people are confused about the political mission of Hurriyat and know little about the parties that it comprises.
Finally, and foremost, the people of Srinagar strongly demand for restoration of normalcy. If normalcy is to be restored in Srinagar the issues raised by the peoples of Srinagar have to be addressed to by all the parties concerned.
(The author is national committee member, Pakistan-India Peoples' Forum of Peace and Democracy, and joint secretary, West Bengal chapter of the Forum.)
http://countercurrents.org/j&k-amit.htm
by Amit Chakraborty
Almost all Srinagar residents want peace, azadi, and an end to the authoritarianism of Indian forces. AMIT CHAKRABORTY, who observed the recently-concluded elections in J&K, explains why the polls were a farce, and how the will of the people is being muzzled
The results of the Jammu & Kashmir assembly election were declared almost a fortnight back. But as yet the state government could not come into being. The major parties like NC, PDP and Congress, none having the absolute majority in terms of seats won under their banner; claim that they have the mandate from the people of Jammu & Kashmir to form the government. Yet despite their claims, they all know in their hearts that it is far from the reality.
During the third and fourth phase of election, I had the opportunity to be a watcher in the election arena as a member of the team of 'independent election observers' formed by the J&K Coalition for Civil Society. During my stay in Srinagar, for more than a week, I conducted a survey on the basis of random sampling spread over all the 10 constituencies of Srinagar district, commensurate with the demographic composition of the population of Srinagar district as per the 2001 Census. The result that I gathered diminishes the claims of all the frontrunners, staking their claims to form the government, to naught. In Srinagar the NC enjoys the support of only 2.54 per cent of the voting population (i.e., people over the age of 18). The figures for Congress and PDP are respectively 1.70 and 0.85 per cent only.
How can that be when the establishment claimed that average polling in the J&K election was over 42 per cent and these major political parties mostly shared the votes polled? Well, in Srinagar district, 78 per cent of the population is urban. Because of media and election observers' activism, the urban voters could not be herded to polling booths to cast their votes.
But as has been reported about rural voters of Srinagar, and as we have witnessed ourselves in rural areas of Anantnag and Banihal Tehsil of Doda district, the voters were really made to vote by the Rashtriya Rifle forces. They used to enter the village on the pretext that they would provide security to the voting people against the alleged threat of the militants opposing the election. But it was the precise task of the RR personnel to herd people to the polling booth under the threat that if they could not show the indelible ink mark on their fingers they would have to face the music. We came across many people more interested in getting the mark on their fingers than in casting in votes. Thus the high polling percentage was reached. However, for Srinagar district, especially in the city area, even official records showed that the voter turnout was far below the general average.
Why were the people so averse to the election process? Of those interviewed for our survey, 89.84 per cent said the Assembly election was not the true process of choosing the representatives of peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. Only 6.78 per cent looked at the election in a positive manner and 5.08 per cent had any expectations from the electoral process.
Are not the people of Srinagar aware of the problems of Jammu & Kashmir? With the bruised heart and scar all over their body resulting from army and militants' excesses how can they close their eyes away from the day-to-day realities! To conduct the survey I went from place to place to meet the people in all the 10 constituencies of the district of Srinagar, including high-risk security zone areas. Nowhere was my identity challenged as I am from "India". But that of Gawhar Amin, a student from Kashmir University accompanying me through the survey exercise, was challenged on almost all occasions and frisked. Not was not I but he who was treated as an alien in his own land.
The Indian army picked up Shakeela Banno's husband some three years back. He is one in the list of disappeared persons running into thousands. She is hoping against hope for his return. Her husband was an auto driver. Before his disappearance, the couple led four years of conjugal life and had four children. Shakeela manages to maintain the family by fixing wrappers on the chocolates of the local vendors and labouring for household work door to door. When we asked her about the root cause of the problems of J&K she had hardly opined that it was the 'authoritarian, undemocratic and oppressive role of the Indian Government' in Jammu & Kashmir, before bursting into tears, murmuring, "all these things now bear no meaning in my life". However, 25.42 per cent of the people interviewed also think in Shakeela's way. Of the rest, 22.03 per cent feel that 'it is the dispute between India and Pakistan over the possession of J&K'.' Another 26.27 per cent feel that the root cause is the 'contradiction between aspirations of the peoples of J&K and the possessive attitude of Indian government' while 17.80 per cent think that 'poverty, unemployment and illiteracy are the root cause of J&K problem'.
It is interesting to note that not even all the Hindus (Kashmiri Pandits) interviewed (4.24 per cent) consider 'subversive activities being perpetrated at the behest of Pakistan' as the root cause. Only 2.54 per cent of the total people interviewed think in that way.
How do Kashmiris believe the 'peace, prosperity and progress of J&K will be ensured and the democratic right of its people will be guaranteed'? Only 5.07 per cent consider merger with Pakistan as the solution, while 9.32 per cent believe the state should remain an integral part of India. But the vast majority - 83.90 per cent - look forward to sovereign and independent state of Jammu and Kashmir as the only solution.
What do these people mean by independence or 'Azadi'? A six-year-old boy from Safapora village in Baramulla district elucidated the term very nicely in his mother tongue. He said, "Azadi is the situation where there will be no military or militants, where the houses are not burnt, people are not killed and the women are not molested ('Aauraton ka sath badsaluki nehi hoti')". But to others, Azadi has a different meaning. The infuriated young people of Danwhadpora village in Kokernag constituency in the district of Anantnag were chanting slogans right before us when we went there to observe polling: "Hum chahtehen Azadi, Kashmir banega Pakistan".
It is the total alienation of the common people from the Indian state that has made the slogan of Azadi so popular. One of our friends, a lawyer from Srinagar said, "Set aside Pakistan, if there will be a cricket match between India and Israel, the No.1 enemy of the Muslim world, the people of Kashmir will support Israel, but not India". Such is the alienation!
The vast majority of the people (almost 90 per cent) are against partitioning Kashmir between India and Pakistan as per the actual Line of Control or of transferring Muslim majority areas to Pakistan while integrating the Hindu majority areas with India. An even larger segment - 91.53 per cent - of the people interviewed abhor the path of militancy or war as a solution of the Kashmir problem.
They are in favour of a peaceful movement and dialogue and they feel that the dialogue should be between governments of India, Pakistan and the peoples of Jammu & Kashmir. But interestingly, 57.63 per cent of the people interviewed have no faith in any of the political organisations active in Kashmir including the Hurriyat Conference. Hurriyat Conference enjoys the support of 35.59% of Srinagar residents who were interviewed. The majority of those surveyed opposed the election, as did Hurriyat; a majority of the people are also in favour of dialogue, as is Hurriyat. Even then Hurriyat does not enjoy majority support.
The problem is that Hurriyat is not a single political entity but a conglomeration of 23 political entities. Seven of them, as the executive members of the Conference, wield maximum control over the organisation. The political agenda of all these political outfits are not much particular and clear before the common people. When 83.90 per cent of the people are in favour of azadi, five of the seven executives of Hurriyat are in favour of merging with Pakistan. Though they have some faith in Hurriyat but the people are confused about the political mission of Hurriyat and know little about the parties that it comprises.
Finally, and foremost, the people of Srinagar strongly demand for restoration of normalcy. If normalcy is to be restored in Srinagar the issues raised by the peoples of Srinagar have to be addressed to by all the parties concerned.
(The author is national committee member, Pakistan-India Peoples' Forum of Peace and Democracy, and joint secretary, West Bengal chapter of the Forum.)
http://countercurrents.org/j&k-amit.htm
Bull
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An Hindu? How can that be?
Just concluded elections;...?!! When was the elections held last? How old is this article? Why is been posted here now? Where are posters comments?
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