JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[khanasifm]

Isn't this something similar to REK & IREK? This is not a photo but a graphic. The use of JF-17 is generic and probably some marketing aswell. I mean after all most other fighters have SOW options of their own available and a company making something like this wants a market to target. And JF-17 with increasing number of users (including some in south america maybe?) definitely represents a potential market for the manufacturers.

REK current config with gps has cep of less than 10 meter this one or Brazilian uses eo so gets it down to 1 meter

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Chak Bamu]

Isn't this something similar to REK & IREK? This is not a photo but a graphic. The use of JF-17 is generic and probably some marketing aswell. I mean after all most other fighters have SOW options of their own available and a company making something like this wants a market to target. And JF-17 with increasing number of users (including some in south america maybe?) definitely represents a potential market for the manufacturers.

Any & all free marketing is most welcome any day. This just shows that the brand is strong. I just told off an Indian on twitter using the link provided by @CombatSurgeon

There’s definitely chatter on use of WS-13E on Block 3. I believe CATIC recently certified the engine on one of the prototypes too. The 10Cs will be coming with a Chinese engine too, so I won’t be surprised if we eventually see the same switchover for JF program too. At least for Block 3s.

If the article I shared earlier has any juice, then it would not matter whether PAF uses RD-93MA or WS-13E - performance-wise at least. What I found quite shocking was the claim that RD-93MA allegedly used 3 stage LP set-up quite like WS-13E, as though technology from WS-13E flowed back to RD-93MA. In any case its all good however & whatever happens.

I am intrigued at Block-III batch being 30 instead of 50 jets. Can we expect a surprise after the batch of 30 is completed?

 

[araz]

Any & all free marketing is most welcome any day. This just shows that the brand is strong. I just told off an Indian on twitter using the link provided by @CombatSurgeon

If the article I shared earlier has any juice, then it would not matter whether PAF uses RD-93MA or WS-13E - performance-wise at least. What I found quite shocking was the claim that RD-93MA allegedly used 3 stage LP set-up quite like WS-13E, as though technology from WS-13E flowed back to RD-93MA. In any case its all good however & whatever happens.

I am intrigued at Block-III batch being 30 instead of 50 jets. Can we expect a surprise after the batch of 30 is completed?

If you are thinking about an engine change then the crux of the argument lies with how much time and effort is required to change the engine. Unless the dimensions and weight are identical it may require a retest which could take another couple of years. So I suspect the MA may not end up in this block. PAF will need to integrate Block 3 as quickly as is possible to get rid of the PGs and also nonupgraded Mirages. Financially we may not be able to do more than one squadron a year, so lets see what happens.
A

 

[Chak Bamu]

If you are thinking about an engine change then the crux of the argument lies with how much time and effort is required to change the engine. Unless the dimensions and weight are identical it may require a retest which could take another couple of years. So I suspect the MA may not end up in this block. PAF will need to integrate Block 3 as quickly as is possible to get rid of the PGs and also nonupgraded Mirages. Financially we may not be able to do more than one squadron a year, so lets see what happens.
A

RD-93 & WS-13 are quite identical. I do not think there would be major issues. Remember that FC-1 went through tests with WS-13 a long time ago.

My hunch is (no sources at all, just guess work) that reason why Block-III order being only 30 units may be due to engine.

 

[Trango Towers]

RD-93 & WS-13 are quite identical. I do not think there would be major issues. Remember that FC-1 went through tests with WS-13 a long time ago.

My hunch is (no sources at all, just guess work) that reason why Block-III order being only 30 units may be due to engine.

Pakistan never orders 100 units at a time. 30 will go to 50 at least and block 1 and 3 will be upgraded to block 3.
150 block 3 will be a nightmare for Indians to handle especially backed by electronic warfare and superior training

 

[Chak Bamu]

Pakistan never orders 100 units at a time. 30 will go to 50 at least and block 1 and 3 will be upgraded to block 3.
150 block 3 will be a nightmare for Indians to handle especially backed by electronic warfare and superior training

Did I say that Pakistan should order 100 units at a time? Block-wise orders were 50 for each block. But for Block-III it is 30, not 50. This was a surprise. Some said that it was because of B model, some said that it was merely an order for 30 that did not preclude 20 more to be ordered later. However, I noted that Block-III was being delayed & there was some uncertainty about availability of RD-93MA in time for formal launch of JF-17 Block III. I thought (& still think that it is possible) that it was because of RD-93MA probably not being ready. In any case, we'll see.

 

[Trango Towers]

Did I say that Pakistan should order 100 units at a time? Block-wise orders were 50 for each block. But for Block-III it is 30, not 50. This was a surprise. Some said that it was because of B model, some said that it was merely an order for 30 that did not preclude 20 more to be ordered later. However, I noted that Block-III was being delayed & there was some uncertainty about availability of RD-93MA in time for formal launch of JF-17 Block III. I thought (& still think that it is possible) that it was because of RD-93MA probably not being ready. In any case, we'll see.

Yaar you got annoyed for nothing.
I am talking about the order will be increased. Block b is not the same. But Alhumdulillah this airforce is looking lean and mean.

 

[khanasifm]

RD-93 & WS-13 are quite identical. I do not think there would be major issues. Remember that FC-1 went through tests with WS-13 a long time ago.

My hunch is (no sources at all, just guess work) that reason why Block-III order being only 30 units may be due to engine.

Nothing of sort the 26/28 dual seater are perhaps taking the $$ and also getting aesa plus other goodies so basically block 3 in short run so eventually total for Jf-17 will cross 200 min and perhaps reach 250 with 13/14 or so sqn while remaining by f-16 and plus one other type due next year per rumors let leave it as rumor but very authentic one ☝

 

[Dreamer.]

Did I say that Pakistan should order 100 units at a time? Block-wise orders were 50 for each block. But for Block-III it is 30, not 50. This was a surprise. Some said that it was because of B model, some said that it was merely an order for 30 that did not preclude 20 more to be ordered later. However, I noted that Block-III was being delayed & there was some uncertainty about availability of RD-93MA in time for formal launch of JF-17 Block III. I thought (& still think that it is possible) that it was because of RD-93MA probably not being ready. In any case, we'll see.

I would agree with others that the smaller order for 30 block-3 may have something to do with finances and budget. Given that block-b is also being inducted with aesa radars at the same time so their has to be budget for that. In addition, the possible upcoming induction of J-10 would have made demands on the budget too. IF as indicated those are coming early to mid next year then PAF would have been busy making arrangements for it for a while now including taking care of financial aspects and that could have affected block-3 budgeting & numbers.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I would agree with others that the smaller order for 30 block-3 may have something to do with finances and budget. Given that block-b is also being inducted with aesa radars at the same time so their has to be budget for that. In addition, the possible upcoming induction of J-10 would have made demands on the budget too. IF as indicated those are coming early to mid next year then PAF would have been busy making arrangements for it for a while now including taking care of financial aspects and that could have affected block-3 budgeting & numbers.

Like I said, it is guess work on my part. I could be wrong & you could be right. We know that Block-III birds are being assembled as of now. If RD-93MA is not available then they would have to be powered by vanilla RD-93 - notice that I am treating WS-13E as a rumor because there is no confirmation about its use in JF-17. RD-93MA could easily be ~ 2 years away & that aligns with an order of 30 birds. PAF could easily place an order for 50 instead of 30. Its not as though JF-17 production is coming at an end, or that the completion of the order is somehow time-bound, or that PAF & PAC are in different hemispheres altogether. I do not see budgeting issues as the reason for an order of 30 vs an order of 50. But the availability & change of the engine could be a big enough reason to warrant a smaller order because that would effectively change the bird's performance. Again, this is pure guess-work & I would love to be wrong.

 

[JamD]

Like I said, it is guess work on my part. I could be wrong & you could be right. We know that Block-III birds are being assembled as of now. If RD-93MA is not available then they would have to be powered by vanilla RD-93 - notice that I am treating WS-13E as a rumor because there is no confirmation about its use in JF-17. RD-93MA could easily be ~ 2 years away & that aligns with an order of 30 birds. PAF could easily place an order for 50 instead of 30. Its not as though JF-17 production is coming at an end, or that the completion of the order is somehow time-bound, or that PAF & PAC are in different hemispheres altogether. I do not see budgeting issues as the reason for an order of 30 vs an order of 50. But the availability & change of the engine could be a big enough reason to warrant a smaller order because that would effectively change the bird's performance. Again, this is pure guess-work & I would love to be wrong.

In my opinion an engine switch is the best possible explanation for the 30 order. Recall that IFR probes were introduced in the middle of the block (29th block 2 onward if my memory serves me right) and there was a slowdown in production to incorporate these "mid-block" changes.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

Like I said, it is guess work on my part. I could be wrong & you could be right. We know that Block-III birds are being assembled as of now. If RD-93MA is not available then they would have to be powered by vanilla RD-93 - notice that I am treating WS-13E as a rumor because there is no confirmation about its use in JF-17. RD-93MA could easily be ~ 2 years away & that aligns with an order of 30 birds. PAF could easily place an order for 50 instead of 30. Its not as though JF-17 production is coming at an end, or that the completion of the order is somehow time-bound, or that PAF & PAC are in different hemispheres altogether. I do not see budgeting issues as the reason for an order of 30 vs an order of 50. But the availability & change of the engine could be a big enough reason to warrant a smaller order because that would effectively change the bird's performance. Again, this is pure guess-work & I would love to be wrong.

I hope any engine upgrade is backward compatible. That is block 1-2 should be able to accept new engines as well.

 

[Dreamer.]

Again, this is pure guess-work & I would love to be wrong.

Why? I would actually love for you to be right. Previous post was MY guess work. And my reasoning for it was that PAF has never given any official indication about wanting the RD-93 MA or any other engine, and have infact always said they are satisfied with the existing engine. And of course I could be wrong about finances being the reason and I hope I am.

Obviously neither of us knows the real reason, only PAF knows the real reason.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Why? I would actually love for you to be right. Previous post was MY guess work. And my reasoning for it was that PAF has never given any official indication about wanting the RD-93 MA or any other engine, and have infact always said they are satisfied with the existing engine. And of course I could be wrong about finances being the reason and I hope I am.

Obviously neither of us knows the real reason, only PAF knows the real reason.

I would love to be wrong, if JF-17 gets WS-13E. That would mean a lot of things, foremost being that WS-13E is mature & a good bit of improvement over RD-93. JF-17 needs all the dry thrust it can get to ensure that avionics have ample power to operate to their limits. More options can only be good for the program.